# Fundamentalist Christians: will you say this prayer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944 "2003-09-06T16:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![dreadnougat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dreadnougat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreadnougat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/182 "2003-09-30T04:21:43Z")
Ah, drat. Not only did I not stop the original post, I corrected the mistake wrong ☹ (btw, if I believe in God, there is no reason he can’t do miracles considering He is all powerful. Miracles are fine, and my having to believe in miracles to believe that the Bible is true does not mean that the Bible cannot be true. You cannot disprove God’s existence, although you can argue that He is not necessary.) ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/183 "2003-09-30T04:22:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Who the fuck are you to judge whether or not someone is being intellectually honest with themselves? We don’t use that type of profanity in Great Debates. Perhaps you should learn a little decorum, and how the SDMB works. > [@](#): > > Whatever looks to be an obvious metaphor. Ok. Obviously, the resurrection of Jesus was a metaphor, right? I mean, that simply can’t happen in real life. So where does that leave the Christian? > [@](#): > > You see, I don’t know, I wasn’t there. And seeing as you weren’t either, neither do you. There are no absolutes, and you’ll just have to accept that. Or don’t, I don’t really care. Your debating skills are impeccable. I’m way out of my league here… ---
**Author:** ![dreadnougat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dreadnougat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreadnougat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/184 "2003-09-30T04:28:49Z")
-Ah, so generally being an ass is allowed, but bypassing a nonexistant filter is not? -no, see the note on my other post -name an absolute. Something that you know must be true. For all you know, you’re a computer simulation. (Btw, that would be an ad hominem) ---
**Author:** ![dreadnougat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dreadnougat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreadnougat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/185 "2003-09-30T04:31:13Z")
It’s also interesting that you tell me to learn a little decorum, when you told me not long ago that tact sometimes evades you… look up decorum in a thesaurus. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/186 "2003-09-30T04:44:15Z")
I will try, one more time, to engage you is some semblence of a rational discussion. If you aren’t interested, please take your ignorant whining elsewhere. What possible, rational, logical, honest, intellectual reasoning can you provide for unilaterally choosing to believe that Jonah and the Whale is a metaphor, but the resurrection of Jesus is literal? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/187 "2003-09-30T04:46:47Z")
dreadnougat: > [@](#): > > badchad: have you ever heard of a metaphor or simile? Are you referring to creation or eternal paradise? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/188 "2003-09-30T04:55:49Z")
Svt4Him: There are plenty of people on these boards to argue with you regarding literal interpretation of the bible. Believe me you don’t want to add me to that list. My truck is with the liberal interpreters if for no other reason other than I am a fairly unique voice in that regard. As such don’t take it personally if I don’t respond to you on a point by point basis with regards to your criticisms of my post above. However, if Siege has anything to say, well, that’s different.😉 ---
**Author:** ![dreadnougat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dreadnougat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreadnougat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/189 "2003-09-30T05:01:42Z")
I said it doesn’t matter if Jonah and the Whale is a metaphor. It doesn’t have to be, since my religion revolves around having an all powerful God who can do as He pleases. Although I’ll say it’s not a metaphor. Attack my God as superfluous, if you want. It’s kinda stupid to attack the miracles that He does, but not Him. badchad: witty ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/190 "2003-09-30T05:25:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > And how much serious reading have you done by those who have thoroughly debunked these apologists, **Svt**? May I venture a guess? Very little. Nope, sorry, you are wrong again. So don’t venture into areas you know little about. badchad- Fair enough, I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/191 "2003-09-30T06:50:16Z")
dreadnougat: > [@](#): > > badchad: witty Svt4Him: > [@](#): > > badchad- Fair enough, I agree with you. This makes 189 posts for me. Polycarp essentially silenced from religious debate and I’m becoming well received. All part of my plan. MUAHAHAHAHA. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/192 "2003-09-30T11:42:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > **Ok. Obviously, the resurrection of Jesus was a metaphor, right? I mean, that simply can’t happen in real life. So where does that leave the Christian?** With the ideas of Shelby Spong, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/193 "2003-09-30T16:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Nope, sorry, you are wrong again. I can accept that, if proven true. Admitting error is no problem for someone with an open mind. But you’ll pardon me if I’m a bit…skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/194 "2003-09-30T17:00:51Z")
[badchad, may I have a word with you?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=214494) ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/195 "2003-09-30T17:01:30Z")
RoundGuy, Here is a good quote for you, “Assumption is the lowest form of knowledge.” You can assume all you like about what I do or do not read, but I do not believe it is fair, nor appropriate in this area of the forum. My personal belief is if you can find no fault in what I’ve posted, then don’t go for character attacks. Even if you can find fault, there are things that people may or may not agree with, but that doesn’t make you more right or wrong than I. For instance, I wouldn’t say the prayer in the OP, for reasons I’ve stated. If you would, that’s your desire, and you may have some good reasons for it. We don’t have to agree on this. And no, I don’t feel the need to prove or disprove myself to you. So please keep to issues. As for being skeptical, you’d be silly not to be. But if there is something I’ve done that is so outrageous that you feel my character needs to be addressed, there is a pit for this type of post, so take it there. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/196 "2003-10-01T05:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > But if there is something I’ve done that is so outrageous that you feel my character needs to be addressed, I have no problem with your character, and I don’t believe I’ve ever directly impugned it. I have a problem with your position, your arguments, and your belief system. I believe they are ignorant, and I will fight ignorance wherever I perceive it. > [@](#): > > For instance, I wouldn’t say the prayer in the OP, for reasons I’ve stated. In my opinion, you won’t say the prayer because you really don’t want to to know the truth. You don’t want to hear that what you’ve believed all of your life may be wrong. You don’t want your world turned upside down. Frankly, I don’t blame you. Accepting reality, when it goes against everything you’ve been taught, is a tough challenge. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/197 "2003-10-01T05:39:00Z")
Homebrew: > [@](#): > > badchad, may I have a word with you? Be right there tough guy. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/198 "2003-10-01T18:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > \*\*I have no problem with your character, and I don’t believe I’ve ever directly impugned it. I have a problem with your position, your arguments, and your belief system. I believe they are ignorant, and I will fight ignorance wherever I perceive it. > > In my opinion, you won’t say the prayer because you really don’t want to to [sic] know the truth. You don’t want to hear that what you’ve believed all of your life may be wrong. You don’t want your world turned upside down. > > Frankly, I don’t blame you. Accepting reality, when it goes against everything you’ve been taught, is a tough challenge. \*\* Don’t say you’re here to fight ignorance when you contribute to it. Granted, I believe that statement is used a lot, but I don’t believe it most of the time I hear it. You’re not here to fight ignorance, but rather my ignorance, as you have just said you have a problem with ‘my position, my argument, and my belief system.’ I have yet to hear a reasonable argument based on facts that you could provide against my argument. In the thread ‘proof of God’ you based your belief on your opinion, when clearly I showed quotes that backed up the claims I make, and you make huge assumptions that have no basis in reality, which is ignorance. For example, “all your life” How many years have I been taught this? “Everything you’ve been taught” What exactly have I been taught that has been turned upside down by a look at the facts? > [@](#): > > Diogenes, and others, did a completely thorough job of debunking the whole Paul conversion thing in another thread – you just didn’t want to hear it. > > Great Debates is a forum for serious, and honest, intellectual debate. If you aren’t interested in intellectual honesty, why are you here? Actually, you have just done what you’re accusing me of, which is why I think the fight against ignorance is taking so long. Different rules for different people, IMO. If you actually read the thread, you’ll see that there was not a thorough job done, but I guess you just don’t want to listen to it. As for intellectual honesty, can you still say there’s no character issue here, or are we again going to let ignorance win over? Just call a spade a spade. > [@](#): > > Admitting error is no problem for someone with an open mind. But you’ll pardon me if I’m a bit…skeptical. Well, let’s go back to the fight of ignorance. What proof have you that I’ve never read any other anti-apologetic (for lack of a better word) book (which is what provoked this quote)? You can tell me what you think, or how you interpret my posts, but, in fact, you have none. So how do you define ignorance? > [@](#): > > In my opinion, you won’t say the prayer because you really don’t want to to know the truth. Well, actually I think I laid out quite well why I wouldn’t say the prayer, but lets let ignorance prevail again. Now please, if you want to address ‘my beliefs’ do it by addressing the issues, not me. Certainly if I say something wrong, feel free to prove me wrong, but don’t let your ignorance get in the way. Back to the op, this is the reason I said I wouldn’t say the prayer, which is what this whole thread started out debating is: > [@](#): > > I would not say the prayer. Let me go back to Adam and Eve, and would it be good for them, in the garden, to say “Oh God, if you don’t want me to eat of this forbidden fruit, please part the heavens and write something in the sky.”? Nope, because He already said it. So then is it safe to say that you believe anyone who doesn’t say this prayer is doing this because they don’t want to know the truth, and are somehow not ‘living in reality’? And just as a side note, nowhere in the Bible does it say a whale swallowed Jonah. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/199 "2003-10-01T23:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > And just as a side note, nowhere in the Bible does it say a whale swallowed Jonah. You are correct, of course. It was a “great fish”. I guess that makes the story more believable. The rest of your post deserves a reasoned, thoughtful response, and I don’t wish to do it in haste. I will respond when I have the time to give it my full attention. There’s a Cubs game tonight, and right now, nothing else matters… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/200 "2003-10-01T23:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > As creationist Ken Ham put it, if the bible got it wrong on astronomy, geology and biology, why should we trust it when it talks of redemption and salvation? Because it was never written to address the _sciences_ of astronomy, geology and biology, or any other science. It was clearly written to use the understanding of the peoples _of the times it was written_ to explain _their_ understanding of God. Ham’s argument is a straw man–as is that of anyone who argues with him–because it imposes a set of beliefs on scripture that are only a recent development in terms of the understandings of _both_ scripture _and_ science. Augustine of Hippo, writing in the fourth century, noted in his **De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim** (translated loosely as **The Literal Meaning of Genesis** ) that scripture was not science and that it was foolish to argue that scripture explained things scientifically: > [@](#): > > One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon. For He willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians. There is no single approach that all “liberal” (whatever that means) Christians use any more than there is a single approach by “Fundamentalists” (however you define that group). However, one aspect that is shared by _many_ people who do not follow Fundamentalist principles is that scripture proceeds from Faith, and then encapsulates it; Faith does not proceed from scripture. Rudolf Bultmann made that concept a central aspect of his studies of scripture and Archbishop Spong has (as noted above), also preached that message. However, it is not a new message and it can be found in various forms throughout Christian thought. Both the Orthodox and the Catholics note that scripture does not stand without tradition. Instead, scripture encapsulates specific beliefs in specific stories, suited to the audience for which each book was written, but with a message concerning belief that resonates among later peoples. The writings reinforce the belief that precedes the writings. It is, obviously, quite possible to challenge such a view as being created by human effort rather than divine effort or being subject to the whims of current cultural interpretative beliefs. However, to claim that one must accept a literal scripture or deny it all is to ignore the way in which mythology (used in the anthropological sense) works among people. One “liberal” approach, then, would be to note that God addressed His people where they stood at one moment in history, and inspired them to keep those writings that were capable of conveying the message to future generations. Those writings will seem to change in meaning precisely because they will be understood more clearly as the understanding of the people expands. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/201 "2003-10-02T12:26:12Z")
Non-Christians claim: \>Once again, the best the Jesus-science people can come up \>with is the fallacy of argument from ignorance. Just because \>science can’t explain something doesn’t mean that God did it. Which translates to “Lack of evidence to the contrary is not proof”. Now, contrast with this: \>Now the only evidence we have of the above claims is several \>thousand years old written in the bible by folks none of us have \>ever met to be able to judge either their sanity or honesty. Which translates to “Lack of evidence to the contrary **is** proof”. Make up your minds! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944.md?page=11)