# Fundamentalist Christians: will you say this prayer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944 "2003-09-06T16:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/101 "2003-09-09T14:09:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > > **vanilla** , one quick comment – nobody said this prayer needed to be prayed in public. Could you say it, or something like it, in private? \*\* and why should I? My prayers are between me and God, no one needs put words in my mouth. What was Ben’s point anyway? How about "God, please show all these nonbelievers that you really exists and the bible is your (only) written word. Amen. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/102 "2003-09-09T14:22:03Z")
Dogface: > [@](#): > > Scripture is not the Word of God. Christ is the Word of God and no mere book is the Word of God. Scripture is a message from God and words about God. But only Christ is the Divine Logos. I do not worship Bibles. I worship God. Nonsense speak. The problem here is that if the bible is mistaken then you have no idea what the word of god (as you define it) says. If the bible is not mistaken then like vanilla says it means the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/103 "2003-09-09T20:59:19Z")
**Why be afraid to pray to God for the truth?** Are you afraid of what he might show you? Even if you are unwilling to accept that the Bible may not be 100% accurate, couldn’t you at least be willing to accept that your interpretation may be flawed? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/104 "2003-09-09T21:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > **Why be afraid to pray to God for the truth? Are you afraid of what he might show you?** I suppose you could quite legitimately be afraid of the truth; if it might turn out to be something quite unpleasant or uncomfortable or merely personally inconvenient; I’d still take the red pill myself though I think(hope). ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/105 "2003-09-09T21:58:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*Nonsense speak. The problem here is that if the bible is mistaken then you have no idea what the word of god (as you define it) says. If the bible is not mistaken then like vanilla says it means the same thing. \*\* The Word of God is Christ. This is the Living Tradition of the Church, and the Church is older than the Bible. The Bible did not create the Church. The Church created the Bible. Indeed, the Church existed before some books of Scripture were even written. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/106 "2003-09-09T22:01:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Yet God wrote (Dictated) the bible. > So its the same thing. \*\* The Divine Logos, the Word of God is God. That is, the Logos is God. The Word IS God. Thus, if you consider the Bible to be the Word of God, then you go around worshipping Bibles. That is nothing other than crass idolatry. You have made a golden calf of printed pages. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/107 "2003-09-09T22:09:02Z")
I did see someone (on another board) once argue that the Bible was the Word of God and Jesus was the word of God and Jesus is God too, so the Bible was therefore the same entity as Jesus and the Bible is God himself, but that wasn’t the only way in which he was nutty. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/108 "2003-09-10T00:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*It’s amazing how some people are so willing to play paper dolls with Scripture. Genesis in the Old Testament is to be taken as utterly literal. “This is my body” in the New Testament is to be taken as mere metaphor. \*\* Um, **Dogface** , you’re forgetting that we’re talking about people who use a Bible that has had _seven entire books_ slashed out of it because they had bits in them contradicted Martin Luther’s doctrine. Then there’s the missing chapters from Esther and Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh. When fund’ists say “The Bible is the Word of God,” what they mean in, “Only the books I think belong in the Bible are the Word of God. Oh, by the way, I am entitled to twist the meaning and intent of the writers of the various books that make up the Bible to suit my doctrinal viewpoint.” Sorry, but after spending two years in a fund’ist Baptist school, I got a view of God that was so warped that I spent the first twelve years of my adult life hating Him. I’m still just a tad bitter. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/109 "2003-09-10T01:07:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*How about "God, please show all these nonbelievers that you really exists and the bible is your (only) written word. > Amen. > 🙂 \*\* In other words, “God, please show everyone who disagrees with me that I’m right.” Wow, that’s really humbling yourself before God. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/110 "2003-09-10T01:15:33Z")
Super Gnat: I see what you mean about “praying for debate points.” That wasn’t my intent, though. I was, first of all, trying to balance against the evolution side of the equation, so that it wouldn’t seem like a “God, please show me that evolution is right and I’m wrong” prayer. Secondly, remember that CvE isn’t just some high-school debate exercise. Many fundamentalists believe that you can’t even be a Christian if you’re an evolutionist. Like Polycarp said, the entire point of the prayer is not to deconvert FC’s, but to get them to stop obsessing over their personal shibboleths. Vanilla, Polycarp, I’m particularly interested in your opinions of whether the people I listed can have a relationship with God. Also, vanilla, is your belief in Biblical errancy something that you can change your mind over, or is it a personal communcation from God that you cannot change your mind about without betraying Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/111 "2003-09-10T02:13:10Z")
Dogface: > [@](#): > > The Word of God is Christ. This is the Living Tradition of the Church, and the Church is older than the Bible. The Bible did not create the Church. The Church created the Bible. Indeed, the Church existed before some books of Scripture were even written. Yeah and some books of scripture were written before the Christian church existed, so what. I’m not sure what your trying to argue with the “Word” stuff but if you think you have a message from Jesus that comes from some source other than the bible I’d like to hear of it, and if it is just some fuzzy feeling in your heart don’t expect me to be impressed. > [@](#): > > The Divine Logos, the Word of God is God. That is, the Logos is God. The Word IS God. Thus, if you consider the Bible to be the Word of God, then you go around worshipping Bibles. > > That is nothing other than crass idolatry. You have made a golden calf of printed pages. That’s stupid. Perhaps we should get past this use of the word “word” and say that the instructions for Christianity is in the bible or the gospels or whatever, and one can read those instructions with and use them to worship Jesus as they think he wants to be, without worshiping some book. Personally I have never heard a fundamentalist say anything resembling they worship the bible, only that the bible contains the word/instructions of god whom they follow. If Jesus wanted to be the only “Word” instead of the bible then he should have stuck around longer. I tell you it’s these BS arguments that make me respect you liberal Christians a lot less than the fundamentalists who you folks frequently denigrate. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/112 "2003-09-10T03:23:56Z")
Badchad, again I think you are a Christian in desguise. 🙂 Well anyways I am personally not a fan of prayers already said as I feel they detract from the personal relationship between me and God. If I ramble off a prayer that I have prayed 3453645 times it probally wouldnt have much meaning, whereas if I had a prayer that came from the heart and was unique for that situation I feel a closer connection from God. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/113 "2003-09-10T03:39:16Z")
I agree with Shodan. A prayer which simply asks for God to do his will through you is great. But this prayer is quite different. “Lord, I know you said stealing was wrong, but if you want me to steal from this cash register I will listen. I will consider that you may have left this money unguarded because you intended me to have it. Lord, please give me a sign so I will know if I should steal the money. For instance, if I turn around and nobody is looking, that will be a sign that I should take it. Amen.” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/114 "2003-09-10T04:02:39Z")
On the contrary, the prayer isn’t saying, “here’s something specific I want to do, and God, if it turns out it’s ok for me to do it after all, let me know.” It’s quite the opposite: “God, here’s something specific that I very much want to do, and I think it’s what you want me to do, but if I’m wrong, please give me the wisdom and strength to avoid it.” So IMO, the prayer is precisely the opposite of what Nightime and others have characterized it as being. Unless, Nightime, you secretly want to become a Muslim evolutionist? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/115 "2003-09-10T14:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*In other words, “God, please show everyone who disagrees with me that I’m right.” > > Wow, that’s really humbling yourself before God. \*\* Well, I guess that was the first poster I’ve whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/116 "2003-09-10T14:25:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*The Divine Logos, the Word of God is God. That is, the Logos is God. The Word IS God. Thus, if you consider the Bible to be the Word of God, then you go around worshipping Bibles. > > That is nothing other than crass idolatry. You have made a golden calf of printed pages. \*\* Quit twisting my words. I never said nor implied that. If I receive a letter written from my love, I do not “love” the letter, but who wrote it. get it? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/117 "2003-09-10T14:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* > > Vanilla, Polycarp, I’m particularly interested in your opinions of whether the people I listed can have a relationship with God.\*\* > > Guess you’ll have to ask God. > \*\* > Also, vanilla, is your belief in Biblical errancy something that you can change your mind over, or is it a personal communcation from God that you cannot change your mind about without betraying Jesus? \*\* I can change my mind on biblical errancy. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/118 "2003-09-10T15:29:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*Badchad, again I think you are a Christian in desguise. 🙂 Well anyways I am personally not a fan of prayers already said as I feel they detract from the personal relationship between me and God. \*\* So, then you reject Christ’s specific instructions regarding prayer? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/119 "2003-09-10T15:52:04Z")
Vanilla: So you admit that it’s possible that a Muslim, a Mormon, etc. could have a relationship with God? As for Biblical errancy, what would it take to make you change your mind? For example, the Bible says that God sometimes decides that he’s going to hate people even before they’re born. It also says that you can defeat God with the right kind of weapon, kind of like Superman and Kryptonite. Do you believe these things to be true, or do you believe that some errors crept into the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/120 "2003-09-10T15:56:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Well, I guess that was the first poster I’ve whooshed. \*\* Could you explain your post, then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944.md?page=7)