# Fundamentalist Christians: will you say this prayer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944 "2003-09-06T16:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/121 "2003-09-10T22:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > So, then you reject Christ’s specific instructions regarding prayer? …would it matter what I say as you dont like using the bible… ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/122 "2003-09-10T23:28:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Super Gnat: > > I see what you mean about “praying for debate points.” That wasn’t my intent, though. I was, first of all, trying to balance against the evolution side of the equation, so that it wouldn’t seem like a “God, please show me that evolution is right and I’m wrong” prayer. Secondly, remember that CvE isn’t just some high-school debate exercise. Many fundamentalists believe that you can’t even be a Christian if you’re an evolutionist. Like Polycarp said, the entire point of the prayer is not to deconvert FC’s, but to get them to stop obsessing over their personal shibboleths.\*\* I wouldn’t call belief in Jesus a “personal shibboleth”. Belief in Jesus is the crux of Christianity by almost any definition, so I can’t see why your prayer would question that belief. If the prayer was, as you say, aimed at those who build their Christianity around periphial issues, then I would expect to see gay rights, pacifism, purgatory, and other non-essential issues questioned in addition to CvE. If your stated purpose is “not to deconvert FC’s”, then slipping in a question about belief in Jesus could be considered as offensive to Christians as covert prostelyzation (sp?) often is to non-believers. I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean to come across that way, but perhaps you overlooked that aspect of it. Am I making sense? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/123 "2003-09-10T23:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Vanilla: > > So you admit that it’s possible that a Muslim, a Mormon, etc. could have a relationship with God? > > As for Biblical errancy, what would it take to make you change your mind? For example, the Bible says that God sometimes decides that he’s going to hate people even before they’re born. It also says that you can defeat God with the right kind of weapon, kind of like Superman and Kryptonite. Do you believe these things to be true, or do you believe that some errors crept into the Bible? \*\* Yes, a member of almost any faith could have a relationship with God. I admit it!!! Yes, many times I’ve felt it unfair that God seems to be against people off the bat, and I’ve felt like one of those people sometimes. Where does it say you can defeat God with a weapon? I don’t recall that! If it was in Numbers, though, i may have slept thru it.😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/124 "2003-09-10T23:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Could you explain your post, then? \*\* I can try… I meant my “prayer” as a one an atheist might say. it seemed like the same KIND as the one you wanted christinas to say. make sense? If not, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/125 "2003-09-11T00:01:20Z")
No, vanilla, it’s very different from my prayer, as I explained before. My prayer says, “God, let me do your will.” Your prayer tells God what to do, and the fact that the orders in question are the opposite of what an atheist would want is really irrelevant. If Muslims can have a real relationship with God, then why are they Muslims? They would never say a prayer like the one I suggested, because they would consider it to be a betrayal of God for them to ask God to help them change their mind if Islam is wrong. Thus, they would remain Muslims, and never find out that Christianity is real. Do you see my point? Lots of people are in your position, but they can’t agree on what God is telling people. Maybe the Muslims are right, and you’re the one who is misunderstanding God. If your goal is to serve God as best you can, you should be willing to do it as a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, whichever God chooses. But if you’re hung up on your own understanding of God, and unwilling to change it under any circumstances, then you could be turning away from God as a result. If you do that, then you’ve made an idol of your own understanding, and committed the blasphemy of considering yourself to be perfect like God, rather than human like Muslims, Mormons, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/126 "2003-09-11T00:05:09Z")
Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/127 "2003-09-12T22:01:42Z")
> [@](#): > > On the contrary, the prayer isn’t saying, “here’s something specific I want to do, and God, if it turns out it’s ok for me to do it after all, let me know.” But that wasn’t my point. Having it be something you want to do is irrelevant. The point is that you are asking God a question that has already been answered extremely clearly. It’s like saying “God, should I go on a random killing and robbing spree with my mistress? Please advise. Amen.” You don’t have to want to go on the killing spree for it to be a ridiculous question. But your question is no less ridiculous: “God, should I reject Jesus as my savior? In Jesus’ name, Amen.” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/129 "2003-09-22T16:41:19Z")
I find it interesting that we haven’t really got a lot of Christians discussing the crux of the matter here. The fact is that you claim to have received a personal communication from God. You refuse to admit the possibility that you might have misunderstood that communication or might be mistaken about its source. But there are plenty of people who feel the same way as you do, but apparently got a different message. In fact, the folks _in this thread_ probably can’t agree 100% on what God’s message was. Why is that? Isn’t it a little arrogant for each of you to think that you perfectly understand God’s message, while all the other people screwed up? Poly, perhaps you’d care to explain this point of your doctrine to me? ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/130 "2003-09-22T17:15:45Z")
I always thought that humbling one’s self before God was included within the “Give us this day our daily bread” portion of the Lord’s Prayer. In this part, we ask God to help and guide us in whatever way is necessary for our health, physically and spiritually. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/131 "2003-09-22T21:45:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\* > If Jesus wanted to be the only “Word” instead of the bible then he should have stuck around longer. I tell you it’s these BS arguments that make me respect you liberal Christians a lot less than the fundamentalists who you folks frequently denigrate. \*\* What is stupid is your obstinate ignorance. The Divine Logos is the Person of the Trinity through Whom creation was made. Thus, only Christ is the Word, because only Christ is the Divine Logos. As for calling me “liberal”, you may be the most monumentally ignorant person I have ever seen on this board. I have made no secret of the fact that I am an Orthodox Christian. We consider “fundamentalists” and other “conservative” Protestants to be little different from wild-eyed hippies who made everything up last week. If anyone is playing fast-and-loose with Scripture, it is they, not we. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/132 "2003-09-22T22:09:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. \*\* Hey, you try being a bronze age culture taking on people with iron chariots on flat surfaces and see how well you do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/133 "2003-09-22T22:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*What is stupid is your obstinate ignorance. The Divine Logos is the Person of the Trinity through Whom creation was made. Thus, only Christ is the Word, because only Christ is the Divine Logos. As for calling me “liberal”, you may be the most monumentally ignorant person I have ever seen on this board. I have made no secret of the fact that I am an Orthodox Christian. We consider “fundamentalists” and other “conservative” Protestants to be little different from wild-eyed hippies who made everything up last week. If anyone is playing fast-and-loose with Scripture, it is they, not we. \*\* **Dogface** , I know that you and I have had our, um, differences concerning how much of our beliefs are actually shared, but… Speaking as a Byzantine Catholic who has read the entire Bible through (all seventy-three books), and is midway through my second reading, I’d just like to say, Amen, brother. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/134 "2003-09-22T22:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*…would it matter what I say as you dont like using the bible… \*\* OK, ever hear of a very popular prayer called the Our Father (or, in Protestant circles, the Lord’s Prayer)? Yep, the words of Christ Himself as found in (gasp) **THE BIBLE** To accuse an Orthodox Christian or Catholic \* of not believing/using the bible is kind of like accusing a bird of not using its feathers. Hello, we’re the ones who put the Bible together in the first place, and it took us four hundred years and a couple of synods to do it. The Bible was not handed down intact from the Heavens, nor was it dictated word-for-word. \*We were all one church until all that nastiness in 1054, then it took about another coupla centuries for the split to become final. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/135 "2003-09-26T08:03:15Z")
Dogface: Shoot dogface, it took you two weeks to come up with this response. I almost missed it. > [@](#): > > What is stupid is your obstinate ignorance. No yours is. > [@](#): > > The Divine Logos is the Person of the Trinity through Whom creation was made. Cite? > [@](#): > > Thus, only Christ is the Word, because only Christ is the Divine Logos. I already addressed how nonsensical this is and suggested we get past the word “Word” in favor of “instructions”. Aside from the gospels/bible, how do you suggest that Christians learn about Christ’s instructions? > [@](#): > > As for calling me “liberal”, you may be the most monumentally ignorant person I have ever seen on this board. Maybe. I graduated Summa, how about you? > [@](#): > > I have made no secret of the fact that I am an Orthodox Christian. We consider “fundamentalists” and other “conservative” Protestants to be little different from wild-eyed hippies who made everything up last week. They say the same about you. > [@](#): > > If anyone is playing fast-and-loose with Scripture, it is they, not we. That’s what all you fairly tail believing folks say. ---
**Author:** ![gimmytang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@gimmytang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gimmytang)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/136 "2003-09-26T12:22:28Z")
what are you guys talking about? Seems very deep to me…☹ Any who can translate it into Chinese?:rolleyes: By the way, I am a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Blink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@Blink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blink)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/137 "2003-09-26T13:20:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Dogface_ > > **The Divine Logos is the Person of the Trinity through Whom creation was made.** > > **Cite?** Wouldn’t John 1 do the trick for you? Or am I missing the question? Okay we all know this: a single word (can’t get away from that - er -word) can mean several things. In the clause, “He is the living Word,” we understand this to be a reference to Christ. In the clause, “It is the living Word,” we understand this to be a reference to scripture. Context, context, context! ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/138 "2003-09-27T03:22:26Z")
**Blink!** So nice to see you again. Good to know we haven’t scared you away…yet. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t John 1 do the trick for you? Or am I missing the question? No, you’re simply missing the point. What does John 1 have to do with reality? Simply because John(?) says that Jesus is the “Word”, does that make it truth? Why? And what is the “Word”, really? And how do you get from there to the “Trinity”? See, **badchad** and I are card-carrying agnostics. We need proof. Where is the empirical evidence to back up your claims (or the claims of a 2000+ year old book? > [@](#): > > Context, context, context! Yes, context! Your context is 2000 years old, ours is the here and now. Please show its relevance. ---
**Author:** ![dreadnougat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dreadnougat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreadnougat)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/139 "2003-09-27T04:36:27Z")
The belief of Christians is that the proof that our God exists is in our existance. Not to debate the truth in the irreducible complexity argument\*, but that would be one example of evidence for God’s existance. Of course, I can’t speak for all Christians… I’m Orthodox, btw. More evidence - from personal experience - is that I feel more at peace when I pray for forgiveness or comfort, for example. \*I don’t mean to imply that all people who agree with IC are Christians ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/140 "2003-09-27T05:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > the proof that our God exists is in our existance Total bullshit, and complete nonsense. > [@](#): > > I feel more at peace when I pray for forgiveness or comfort I feel at peace when I meditate. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![dreadnougat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dreadnougat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreadnougat)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944/141 "2003-09-27T05:31:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Total bullshit, and complete nonsense. I said that’s what they think, not know, and smarter people than you think it too. Do you even know what irreducible complexity is? Or tact, for that matter? > [@](#): > > I feel more at peace when I pray for forgiveness or comfort Evidence, not proof (notice I refrained from insulting you for ignoring this?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-christians-will-you-say-this-prayer/199944.md?page=8)