Meditation in itself is not a religious or philosophical excercise. It can be used in conjunction with any particular faith or with none. It’s kind of like practicing yoga. It can be beneficial and it requires no special belief in anything.
That doesn’t mean that some fundies aren’t taught to fear meditation because of its assocoation with Buddhism, though. Mainly because a lot of Christian clergy are afraid of their congregations exploring any other philosophies or learning how to think for themselves.
Emphasis mine. Note that the question is not about meditation in general, or quiet reflection, or anything like that. It is whether or not a fundamentalist Christian would practice specifically Buddhist meditation.
Meditation is meditation. The qualifications of “Buddhist” or “Christian” don’t really mean anything. “Breathe in-Breath out” is a value-free exercise. It’s like talking about the difference between Jewish jumping jacks and Taoist jumping jacks. It’s the same activity. The prefixes have no meaning.
Most Westerners who practise Buddhism are found within the Mahayana tradition, thus citing the Avatamsakasutra, one of the foremost Mahayana scriptures, is appropriate.
Scriptures from both Mahayana and Theravada disagree with you there, since it is continually emphasised that Buddha is higher than the gods. Early Buddhism was very concerned with the question of God, since its difference of opinion in regards to Brahman is what set it so apart from Hinduism.
Except if Jews had to wear yarmulkes whilst doing them and Taoists had to recite from the Daodejing. There is a huge difference between Christian meditation as found in the works of, for example, the Spanish mystics which emphasise dedicating all one’s love to God the perfect lover and not to those around one, and in Soto Zen meditation where a koan is used to penetrate what D.T. Suzuki called the antipode of logic.
No religious exercise is so simple you can say its just the same as a similar exercise from another religion.
Funny, 100% of the Buddhists I’ve heard from at the SDMB disagree with the idea that Buddhism is so concerned with gods.
But in any event, you haven’t addressed my point. Even if most Western Buddhists were concerned with such ideas, that doesn’t mean that one has to believe such things in order to perform Buddhist meditation.
A few more data points are in order: I recently listened to an abridged version of The Art of Happiness on tape. The Dalai Lama talked a lot about meditational exercises, but he never said anything about gods, except to mention that he likes religious diversity. None of the exercises had anything to do about gods, or dogma, or karma, or any of that. None of what the Dalai Lama said required any belief in a dogma.
Secondly, back in college I took a class on Eastern religions, and a Buddhist monk spoke to our class. He repeatedly stressed that Buddhism doesn’t require a belief in any dogma, and you can be a Christian or a Muslim or whatever you like and still be a Buddhist, because Buddhism doesn’t concern itself with doctrinal beliefs the way most other religions do.
For that matter, my own experiences with “intro to Buddhist meditation” events indicates that such events present the same information I presented here about mindfulness of breathing meditation. Never have I heard them say anything about gods, Indra, Bodhisattvas, or anything of the sort.
Unomundo, you have a very shallow and distorted perception of Buddhism. Some schools of Buddhism acknowledge gods but they are not important to the goal of Buddhism. When you say that “the Buddha” is more important than the gods, this shows a misunderstanding of the word “Buddha.” A Buddha is an enlightened individual. There are more than one. Siddartha Gautma is regarded as the first and most important but he is not deified or worshipped. What Buddhism teaches is that the gods, if the exist, are still subject to karma and that it is better to be a Buddha, than it is to be a god. The goal is to become a Buddha not to worship one.
None of that has anything to do with meditation, though. Meditation is simply a mental exercise that has nothing to do with religious belief. It can and is used by Christians to facilitate prayer and peace of mind. It is also used by people who have no religious beliefs at all, including Buddhist notions of karma. You don’t have to believe that Buddhas are better than gods in order to meditate any more than you have to believe in Buddhism to learn kung fu.
Your earlier assertion that it can lead to false pride is rather silly since pride is one of the very things that meditation is used to combat. Egoism actually inhibits productive meditation.
BTW, couldn’t being good at basketball lead to pride? Should Christians avoid playing basketball?
Except if Jews had to wear yarmulkes whilst doing them and Taoists had to recite from the Daodejing. There is a huge difference between Christian meditation as found in the works of, for example, the Spanish mystics which emphasise dedicating all one’s love to God the perfect lover and not to those around one, and in Soto Zen meditation where a koan is used to penetrate what D.T. Suzuki called the antipode of logic.
No religious exercise is so simple you can say its just the same as a similar exercise from another religion.
That’s precisely the problem, that the exercises have nothing to do with anything except the one who exercises. Christianity requires a dogma, that Jesus Christ is the route to God the Father, and only God can save since man is doomed by original sin. Buddhist meditation, on the other hand, is geared to free adherents from dogma so they can attempt to find some lasting peace on their own. The “liberation” that Buddhist meditation supposedly offers is unacceptable. As I Christian, I would much rather that a person attempted to find happiness through Christian prayer, which is meant to continually remind one of man’s inferiority and the salvation offered through death on the cross.
You know, UnuMondo, as if your seemingly counterfactual statements weren’t suspicious enough, there’s also the fact that you still refuse to actually, you know, cite any of this stuff…
Thanks, Brutus, but that isn’t what UnuMondo claimed. Plus, he has a lot more to cite since people initially asked him to cite his depression claim.
Anyway, it turns out that Brutus’ cite has a section on Metta Bhavana, which was the second exercise I had in mind.
In short, the meditation goes through stages in which you start with a bit of mindfulness of breathing. Then you imagine someone you like, and observe your warm feelings for them, and your wishes for their well-being. Then you imagine someone neutral (the cashier at your favorite lunch spot, say, or a coworker you don’t know well) and try to experience the same sense of lovingkindness for them. Then you imagine someone you actively dislike, who you don’t get along with, and again wish them well, and try to feel the same sense of compassion for them as you felt towards the person you liked. Lastly, you try to make that sense of compassion encompass everyone.
I’ll simply add my voice to the chorus requesting a cite for any study that’s indicated meditational practices increase depression. (In what is emphatically not the singular of data, my own anecdotal evidence had precisely the opposite effect.)
Meditation is not geared to freeing from dogma, generally speaking; it’s a tool for increasing mindfulness primarily. Mindfulness is a good thing regardless of one’s other religious beliefs, I would think–Christian theology holds that faith, and thus salvation, is granted by Christ via the Holy Spirit moving upon and within the heart, yes? And generally holds that those who haven’t heard and turned to God haven’t because they haven’t been listening to God always speaking via the Holy Spirit in them? And thus–it seems to this non-thesist, at least–deepening one’s capacity for mindfulness would be a process of striving to make it easier to hear that all-important voice of the divine.
The fundamental disconnect that happens here is a sad one, in my view; it lies in that many people–of all religious persuasions–don’t actually practice their faith very much. They simply believe in it. Faith without works was…alive, was it?
I should make a clarification. I was exposed to the Japanese forms of Zen Buddhism, and that monastery I meditated in was on Mount Koya in Japan. Also, I do pray directly to the Jesus and the rest of the Trinity when I’m working with non-Christian traditions. There are elements of Zen Buddhism I approve of, including emptying one’s self of self and seeking peace. I also find that adopting a formal posture helps compose the mind for prayer and sitting cross-legged is easier on my knees than kneeling. The key difference is that, if I recall (it’s been nearly 20 years since that monastery), while Zen meditation seeks to leave a person at one with the universe, when I meditate, I seek to become one with God.
I’m afraid I also have to admit to a certain knee-jerk response to this. Ben, would you mind stepping into the BBQ Pit with me in a few minutes? I’d rather not hijack this thread.
Meditation is not a religious exercise and Buddhism does not teach that meditation is a path to liberation. The benefits of meditation are not in conflict with Christianity.
But the OP isn’t asking if the fundimentalist Christians would practice meditation…it’s asking if they would practice Buddhist meditation. Both Buddhism and Christianity have prayers and rituals that incorporate meditation, but they’re not identical. So if someone says they won’t practice Buddhist meditation because they believe it’s in conflict with Christianity, that doesn’t mean they neccesarily think medititation is in conflict with Christianity, or that they won’t practice any meditation.
That would be the lazy and gutless way to do it, I suppose, but more is gained by actually doing the work for yourself and feeling genuine compassion towards others.