# Fundamentalist Ignorance triumphs again (A creationism rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870 "2002-09-27T14:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/41 "2002-09-28T06:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > It is not impossible that some omnipotent being might have created the universe one fine Sunday afternoon in October, 4004 BC, planted a huge amount of evidence in it that suggests to all objective observers that its age is in the billions of years and that the planet we live on is about 4.6 billion years of age, then caused the account of what he actually did to be written up in myth form and inserted at the beginning of a collection of legends, history, and laws that he commanded a pharaoh’s adoptive grandson to write down. > … > Such a god, however, would be the ultimate in trickster deities, making Coyote, Loki, and their ilk into relatively compassionate and honest folk by comparison. > … > And it is completely beyond me why anyone would ever be interested in worshipping such a god, other than the obvious concept that he demands their worship, under penalty of infinite torture if they don’t. For your consideration, I submit: [Job: A Comedy of Justice](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345316509/qid=1033195085/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-9287381-4785513?v=glance&n=507846). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/42 "2002-09-28T07:11:06Z")
_Nunc dimittis. . . ._ Someone suggesting that **Poly** read Heinlein! ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/43 "2002-09-28T07:39:46Z")
Yeah, but I just couldn’t resist… ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/44 "2002-09-28T07:43:14Z")
I was going to put “Hmmm… sounds suspiciously like _Job_” Especially with the comparison to Loki et al. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/45 "2002-09-28T13:00:36Z")
Ok Ok, You know what…I’m sick of the speculation. I’m going to find out once and for all what the truth of the universe is. That’s right, I’m going to ask God. [http://www.godanswers.com](http://www.godanswers.com) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/46 "2002-10-01T21:43:08Z")
**Waenara** , Jerry Farnsworth recommended it to me already! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/47 "2002-10-02T17:17:19Z")
Your little pet **theory** of evolution is just that, a theory. It’s not a proven fact. Were you around millions of years ago or even 6000 yeares ago? You weren’t there yet you say you know exactly what happened because science says so? I for one am glad for any school that starts teaching creation along with the theory of evolution. Christian kids shouldn’t have to have this theory shoved down their throats when they don’t believe it’s true. They give you tests that ask how did man originate and how’s a Christian supposed to answer that? ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/48 "2002-10-02T18:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I for one am glad for any school that starts teaching creation along with the theory of evolution. Christian kids shouldn’t have to have this theory shoved down their throats when they don’t believe it’s true. \*\* So if I don’t believe in something, that means it’s actually not true? Great!! I no longer believe in math. You hear that CitiBank?? My balance is fuckin’ _zero!_ ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/49 "2002-10-02T18:10:40Z")
Oh my, did **His4Ever** just walk into the Pit with TEACH ME written in large, red letters? I’m going to enjoy this. My dear lady, you are suffering from several misapprehensions. > [@](#): > > Your little pet theory of evolution is just that, a theory. It’s not a proven fact. Let us get our definitions straight. A theory is not, as you seem to think, mere supposition. A theory is "“a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” (Per the National Academy of Sciences. When a scientist talks about the theory of evolution, or germs, or relativity, she is not expressing hesitation about its validity. > [@](#): > > Were you around millions of years ago or even 6000 yeares ago? You weren’t there yet you say you know exactly what happened because science says so? From [Scientific American](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF) > [@](#): > > In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as “an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as ‘true.’” The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling. > > All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists’ conclusions less certain. Have you ever watched _CSI_ , the TV show about police forensics? The characters on the show, like real-life forensic pathologists, use indirect evidence, like fingerprints, bloodstains, and insect larvae, to catch criminals. The study of evolutionary biology works the same way. > [@](#): > > I for one am glad for any school that starts teaching creation along with the theory of evolution Which creation are we talking about? Genesis has two mutually contradictory stories. And what about the Hindus, the Muslims, and the various Native American tribes, all of whom have their own creation tales with the exact same amount of validity as yours? > [@](#): > > Christian kids shouldn’t have to have this theory shoved down their throats when they don’t believe it’s true. They give you tests that ask how did man originate and how’s a Christian supposed to answer that? It’s called “education,” something I recommend you try. If you go to [talkorigins.org,](http://www.talkorigins.org) you’ll get a grounding in the competing claims of evolution versus fundamentalist creation myths. Here’s a list of books that you might find enlightening: **Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea** , by Carl Zimmer **The Blind Watchmaker** , by Richard Dawkins **The triumph of evolution : and the failure of creationism** , by Niles Eldredge **Get A Grip on Evolution** , by David Burnie (a good basic primer, complete with glossary) You might also want to read some of Stephen Jay Gould’s books, but you might find them a bit difficult to follow, I’d love to know how creationists account for microbes developing resistance to antibiotics. ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/50 "2002-10-02T18:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Your little pet **theory** of evolution is just that, a theory. It’s not a proven fact. Were you around millions of years ago or even 6000 yeares ago? You weren’t there yet you say you know exactly what happened because science says so? I for one am glad for any school that starts teaching creation along with the theory of evolution. Christian kids shouldn’t have to have this theory shoved down their throats when they don’t believe it’s true. They give you tests that ask how did man originate and how’s a Christian supposed to answer that? \*\* Your little pet **theory** of creationism is just that, a theory. It’s not a proven fact. Were you around millions of years ago or even 6000 years ago? You weren’t there yet you say you know exactly what happened because the bible says so? I for one am glad for any school that starts teaching evolution along with the theory of creationism. Evolution kids shouldn’t have to have this theory shoved down their throats when they don’t believe it’s true. They give you tests that ask how did man originate and how’s an Evolutionist supposed to answer that? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/51 "2002-10-02T18:16:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Your little pet theory of evolution is just that, a theory. It’s not a proven fact. Were you around millions of years ago or even 6000 yeares ago? You weren’t there yet you say you know exactly what happened because science says so? I for one am glad for any school that starts teaching creation along with the theory of evolution. Christian kids shouldn’t have to have this theory shoved down their throats when they don’t believe it’s true. You have not the slightest idea what you are talking about. BTW, you were not around even 2000 years ago, so how come you act like you know what happened back then? I feel like I need to write you an essay that I don’t have time or ambition to write – but fortunately, I had to do it about a year ago. Please read [this post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1167394#post1167394) [/quote] They give you tests that ask how did man originate and how’s a Christian supposed to answer that? [/quote] How about with the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/52 "2002-10-02T18:16:59Z")
Is this guy serious? Or do we have a troll here? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/53 "2002-10-02T19:06:49Z")
**His4Ever** (who is a married woman, according to previous posts) is quite serious, **Ogre**. It surprises me you haven’t run into previous interactions that have resulted in her being pitted before. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/54 "2002-10-02T19:19:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Is this guy serious? Or do we have a troll here? No, **H4E** is not a troll; she’s just a rock-headed fundie who posts authoritatively on matters that she knows nothing about. **H4E** , have you ever had a science class? Have you ever read any books on how evolution works? Have you even set foot inside a bookstore or library? Good night, woman, you ought to know by now that making bald, unsupported assertions do not fly here. Present some evidence and make your case, fer the love of Ras Tafari, mon! You been blinded by the lies of fundie Babylon, mon; I and I want you to get the knowledge of the way the world really functions, not to mention getting some irie into your soul. I and I prescribe some Stephen Jay Gould, to educate, plus a dose of Yellowman, Bob Marley, Pato Banton, and Toots and the Maytals. That’ll clear up your sour disposition and get your soul to dancin’. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/55 "2002-10-02T19:35:28Z")
This has got to be the most intelligent thread I’ve ever read at the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/56 "2002-10-02T20:00:10Z")
[brief hijack] **Polycarp** - Great link (I’d forgotten about that thread). Just one thing: > [@](#): > > As scientific studies, and Barb and I are trained to evaluate scientific studies, they sit on hills and bark at the moon.) What’s wrong with sitting on hills and barking at the moon? 😉 **His4ever** , I _strongly_ recommend that if you’re going to get involved in these discussions that you read up on, at the very least, the links you’ve been offered here. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/57 "2002-10-02T20:00:27Z")
I thought I’d seen it all, but then I read **His4ever’s** post here. My jaw literally dropped open. And I was just beginning to think that she might be absorbing an ounce of objectivity. ::sigh:: While contemplating an appropriate response, **gobear** , **Polycarp** , and **Ol’Gaffer** quickly surpassed what I was contemplating. So… carry on. You’re better at this than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/58 "2002-10-02T20:47:49Z")
I apologize for the gender mixup. As for not noticing her earlier, I’ve been on something of a hiatus since July (moving, new job, etc.,) and I see she only registered in August. I assumed from the blatant, willful ignorance in her post that she was trolling. My mistake. Anyway. Here is a good quote from Gould’s (controversial) _Rocks of Ages_ that illustrates perfectly the relationship between science and creationism to me (except that I do not believe in God, and Gould, for the sake of this book, at least, posits God’s existence:) “\*f some contradiction seems to emerge between a well-validated scientific result and a conventional reading of scripture, we’d better reconsider our exegesis, for the natural world does not lie, but words can convey many meanings, some allegorical or metaphorical.” If there is a God that created all this, and if the natural world does lie, then that God is no more than the trickster **Polycarp** described. Also, while I’m on a tear, let me briefly address **H4E** ’s erroneous use of the word “theory.” In short, I do not think that means what you think it means. In the scientific sense, a theory is an explanation that is the best fit for **all** the facts of a question. If one is not explained, the theory is not valid and must be modified. It is most certainly NOT the popular definition, which is usually described as “a guess.” A scientific theory has to be tested thousands upon thousands of times in widely different scenarios and with widely different starting conditions in order to merit being called a theory. For all the relationship a scientific theory has to the popular definition, you might as well have said, “Your little pet theory of evolution is just that, a rutabaga.” They don’t mean the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/59 "2002-10-02T22:52:37Z")
Weird. Why does it say that Algernon’s was the last post? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870/60 "2002-10-02T22:59:46Z")
The hamsters, in addition to suffering from speed burnout, are also developing dementia and arthritis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-ignorance-triumphs-again-a-creationism-rant/129870.md?page=4)