# Fundamentalist reaction to Lord of the Rings **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894 "2011-07-21T19:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bpelta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Bpelta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bpelta)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/1 "2011-07-21T19:09:23Z")
Fundamentalists sure got in a tizzy over the fantasy in Harry Potter. So I was wondering, when Lord of the Rings came out, was there a negative reaction from Christian and Jewish fundamentalists then? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/2 "2011-07-21T19:19:13Z")
It was written by a religiously ultraconservative and devout Catholic. Not the Mel Gibson type, but staunchly oldschool. He kept the Lord of the Rings essentially free of religion. He definitely used inspiration from certain Christian concepts in writing his cosmology of Arda, mostly in the _Ainulindalë_. But he worked and reworked the Christian material until it was no longer overtly Christian at all, but was a cosmology and mythology which could comport well with Christianity in a general sense, if you wanted it to. The Valar could be read as archangels (with a Christian mindset) or gods and goddesses (with a Pagan mindset), but manage to be remarkably free of sticky ties to real-world theologies for any material so religiously inspired. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/3 "2011-07-21T19:23:30Z")
Tolkein received a pass from fundamentalist because of his long standing relationship with C.S. Lewis, who is revered by fundamentalist for his portrayal of Christ in the figure of the lion Aslan. Rowling on the other hand, wrote her first book, while living off the dole in England, which is considered a no-no, by conservative fundamentalists. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/4 "2011-07-21T19:26:24Z")
Some, sure, though it was a matter of [some debate](http://www.ericbarger.com/lotr.c.c.2.htm) (notice C.S. Lewis takes some fire here as well). But lots of [Christians of somewhat greater imagination](http://tolkienandchristianity.blogspot.com/) have no trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/5 "2011-07-21T19:27:57Z")
I think the big problem that Christian fundamentalists have with the Harry Potter series is that magic and wizardry are being used for good as well as for evil purposes. In their theology (based on some texts in the Bible) magic and wizardry are intrinsically evil – and that view is reasonably consistent with the supernatural elements in the Lord of the Rings series. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/6 "2011-07-21T19:28:14Z")
There is this (not that it makes any sense but then Fundies rarely do): > [@](#): > > The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien > > Burned in Alamagordo, NM (2001) outside Christ Community Church along with other Tolkien novels as satanic. > > SOURCE: [http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocacy/banned/frequentlychallenged/challengedclassics/reasonsbanned/index.cfm](http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocacy/banned/frequentlychallenged/challengedclassics/reasonsbanned/index.cfm) This is surprising (or maybe not): > [@](#): > > Coming in at #40 on the American Library Association’s banned book list, surprisingly to many, is J.R.R Tolkien’s epic masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings. The classic trilogy, along with The Hobbit, has been banned in many schools and public libraries across the nation. > > \ > > According to a National Health Service anti-smoking group in Plymouth, England, children should be banned from watching films like Lord of the Rings because they feature people smoking. > > \ > > The other, most popular, reason behind censorship attempts is that some find the story to be “irreligious.” This comes as a shock since Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and long-time friend of Christian fantasy author C.S. Lewis. He even wrote in a letter to Lewis that the creation of the LOTR was a “fundamentally religious and Christian work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.” This is reflected in several pages with quite noticeable Christian themes and subtexts. When Tolkien began creating the world of Middle-earth, he foresaw one that would reflect Christian views and incorporate basic elements of Christianity into the world of fiction. > > Nevertheless is has been repeatedly banned in Christian schools (and homes) as being anti-Christian, and generally anti-religious. > > SOURCE: [When the author of "Lord of the Rings" lent his quill to Santa Claus - World leading higher education information and services](http://world.edu/content/banned-book-awareness-lord-rings-jrr-tolkien/) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/7 "2011-07-21T19:40:04Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I think the big problem that Christian fundamentalists have with the Harry Potter series is that magic and wizardry are being used for good as well as for evil purposes. In their theology (based on some texts in the Bible) magic and wizardry are intrinsically evil – and that view is reasonably consistent with the supernatural elements in the Lord of the Rings series. All this tells me is that alot of fundamentalist are not consistent thinkers and selectively apply their bias. The whole premise of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, is a magical piece of furniture which transports young children to an enchanted universe where they fight evil. That’s okay, but Harry Potter fighting evil sorcerers is not. :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/8 "2011-07-21T19:45:03Z")
From my first link above, > [@Eric Barger](#): > > SIX MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE FANTASY OF TOLKIEN (and LEWIS) > > 1. The Identity of God - …the idea of God contained in [Tolkien’s] writing is very different from the Biblical revelation of God… > > 2. The Finished Creative Work of God – …his mythical God stopped creating before the work was finished, and then turned the rest over to a group of lesser gods or “sub-creators”… > > 3. Tolkien taught reincarnation – Besides his extensive use of unbiblical themes such as elves, gnomes, dwarves and wizards and other creatures empowered with magical skills, he gave his elves the certainty of unconditional eternal life teaching overt reincarnation… Tolkien also overstepped the biblical mark by building ancestor worship into the storyline – one of the pagan world’s most revered practices. > > 4. Both Tolkien and Lewis endorsed drinking alcohol and smoking and did so in their personal lives… > > 5. Paganism Sympathy - Perhaps the reason that Tolkien and Lewis showed pagan sympathy in their stories is due to their affiliation with one Charles Williams who was a member of the highly satanic, Qabalistic “Order of the Golden Dawn”… > > 6. Occult Desensitization – If it happened to Tolkien and Lewis then it could happen to us. I have pointed out consistently for several years that the Harry Potter books were conditioning unsuspecting minds worldwide to accept the occult as normal… If the mind lives for any substantial amount of time in the fantasy realm of the occult, sorcery and witchcraft, there is certainly a possibility that when facing the same occultism in real life that our human response will not be one that immediately opposes it… ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/9 "2011-07-21T19:52:29Z")
Well, when LOTR first came out, fundamentalists completely ignored it. Just like pretty much everyone else ignored it. It didn’t get really popular until a decade after it was published. At which point (late 1960s), culture wars weren’t about Christian versus satanists but True Americans versus latte-drinking, I mean, dope-smoking hippies. OK well, maybe things haven’t completely changed, but fundamentalists weren’t condemning books for being satanic at that point; they were still condemning books for having swear words or acknowledging that sex happens. Now LOTR has lots of people getting bloodily disemboweled and tortured and murdered, but pretty much pretends sex doesn’t exist, so the Christians were basically OK with it (except for the generic objection to ‘escapist fantasy’ which isn’t really a religious objection). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/10 "2011-07-21T19:52:34Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The whole premise of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, is a magical piece of furniture which transports young children to an enchanted universe where they fight evil. That’s okay, but Harry Potter fighting evil sorcerers is not. :shrug: The Narnia series presents a rather different issue, since the magical elements really aren’t that important to the story, but the whole Aslan thing clearly mirrors the death and resurrection of Christ: C.S. Lewis was writing a Christian allegory far more obviously than J.R.R. Tolkien was, and religion is pretty irrelevant to Rowling’s world. So it’s hard for fundamentalists to be upset about what is so clearly a retelling of the central myth of Christianity. (But, of course, some still don’t like it: Lewis clearly is not a fundamentalist, and he uses a lot of pagan elements in the Narnia books.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/11 "2011-07-21T20:33:34Z")
My father objected to both Lord of the Rings and Narnia, and pretty much all other fantasy, on religious grounds. Thankfully, my mother is more sane. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/12 "2011-07-21T20:46:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > It was written by a religiously ultraconservative and devout Catholic. But a lot of fundamentalist don’t approve of Catholics, either. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/13 "2011-07-21T20:52:28Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The Narnia series presents a rather different issue, since the magical elements really aren’t that important to the story, but the whole Aslan thing clearly mirrors the death and resurrection of Christ: C.S. Lewis was writing a Christian allegory far more obviously than J.R.R. Tolkien was, and religion is pretty irrelevant to Rowling’s world. So it’s hard for fundamentalists to be upset about what is so clearly a retelling of the central myth of Christianity. (But, of course, some still don’t like it: Lewis clearly is not a fundamentalist, and he uses a lot of pagan elements in the Narnia books.) the great Irony here is that modern day fundamentalist Christian practice is chock full of pagan elements not found or even condemned in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/14 "2011-07-21T20:54:17Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The Narnia series presents a rather different issue, since the magical elements really aren’t that important to the story, but the whole Aslan thing clearly mirrors the death and resurrection of Christ: C.S. Lewis was writing a Christian allegory far more obviously than J.R.R. Tolkien was, and religion is pretty irrelevant to Rowling’s world. So it’s hard for fundamentalists to be upset about what is so clearly a retelling of the central myth of Christianity. (But, of course, some still don’t like it: Lewis clearly is not a fundamentalist, and he uses a lot of pagan elements in the Narnia books.) A story of a resurrection in the midst of lots of pagan stuff going on? If this is anti-christian, then the bible is anti-christian itself. ---
**Author:** ![SmithCommaJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@SmithCommaJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmithCommaJohn)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/15 "2011-07-21T21:09:53Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > All this tells me is that alot of fundamentalist are not consistent thinkers and selectively apply their bias. No freaking way! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/16 "2011-07-21T22:13:49Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > It was written by a religiously ultraconservative and devout Catholic. A Fundamentalist would view this as a shade away from a frank admission of his taste for the flesh of unborn children, considered as a testimony to his respectability as a human being. Tolkien seemed to have been saved from the scorn heaped on Rowling by two things: His books were largely ignored at the time they were new, and the Fundamentalist sects we deal with now must not have existed at the time. Which leads me to wonder, when did they begin? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/17 "2011-07-21T23:02:34Z")
Remember that Harry Potter, despite the magic, ostensibly takes place in the real world. Maybe that has something to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/18 "2011-07-22T00:26:56Z")
There is some basic misunderstanding of American religious history in the OP. First of all, there has not been a uniform amount of public display of Christian revivalism in American life. (It was always there under the surface, but it wasn’t out there in public as much.) There have been four major waves where Christians were outspoken in American public life, each about 90 years apart: The First Great Awakening in about 1730 The Second Great Awakening in about 1820 The Fundamentalist Movement in about 1910 The Religious Right in about 2000 _The Lord of the Rings_ came out in 1954 and 1955, and this was a low point in Christian revivalism in the U.S. They weren’t making any big deal about any particular book at the time. The 1950’s were generally not a period of religious controversy in the U.S. Oh, it was assumed that you went to church or synagogue or whatever, but it was considered distinctly low-class to make a big deal of your faith. Second, the brouhaha about the Harry Potter books was possible only because they were getting immense amounts of publicity as they were published. Why would Fundamentalists waste their time complaining about _The Lord of the Rings_, which was very little known for the first decade after it was published? The counter-reaction that _The Lord of the Rings_ has gotten only came in the 2000’s, after the Harry Potter books came out (and the same is true of _The Chronicles of Narnia_). There was **no** Christian reaction to _The Lord of the Rings_ in the 1950’s. Incidentally, I wouldn’t call Tolkien ultraconservative in any sense. Yes, he was a devout Catholic. I can’t think of any way in which he was more religiously reactionary than any random devout British Catholic of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/19 "2011-07-22T01:04:36Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Yes, he was a devout Catholic. I can’t think of any way in which he was more religiously reactionary than any random devout British Catholic of the time. I can. He [was reluctant](http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2003/issue78/1.10.html) to change with the times: > [@](#): > > At one Vatican II-inspired Mass, Tolkien found the innovations too much for him. Disappointed by changes in the Mass’s language and the informality of the ritual, he rose from his seat, made his way laboriously to the aisle, made three low bows and stomped out. > > Much to the conservative Tolkien’s chagrin, in the mid- to late 1960s the drug and political Left especially embraced his mythology. Afraid that such readers might create a sort of “new paganism” around his legendarium, Tolkien spent much of the last decade of his life clarifying its theological and philosophical positions in the work that became _The Silmarillion_. When my family visited Kentucky in 1971, they introduced me to a woman who had read _The Lord of the Rings_. I was considered unusual for having read it (way back then), and it seemed natural for me to meet someone who was unusual in the same way. She said, in her Kentucky drawl, “Oh that’s the hippies’ Bible.” That was all she’d say about it. “That’s the hippies’ Bible.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/20 "2011-07-22T01:44:48Z")
The passage you quote, Johanna, is by a writer named Bradley Birzer, and I don’t consider him to be a very good scholar of Tolkien. (How, you might ask, could I know who is a good scholar of Tolkien? Well, since 1972 I’ve belonged to the Mythopoeic Society, a major scholarly organization for Inklings study. I’ve gone to their annual conferences since 1977, and I chaired the conference in 1994. I just got back from the annual conference this week. I’ve never published or lectured on Tolkien, I admit, but I do have some knowledge of who are the important Tolkien scholars.) Will you at least accept my claim that there is some doubt as to Birzer’s credibility on this subject? Birzer wants very much to emphasize the Catholic nature of _The Lord of the Rings._ He’s willing to overstate his case, I think. In any case, I don’t think that being unhappy with the new mass (assuming that that really happened) is sufficient to make him an ultra-conservative. (Oh, and since 1987 I’ve belong to the (British) Tolkien Society.) I remember a certain amount of the same attitude toward Tolkien as you do. I occasionally would see Tolkien portrayed as a hero to hippies in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. On the other hand, I grew up in a rural area where people didn’t read that much, and I don’t remember then as ever having an opinion, good or bad, about Tolkien. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894.md?page=2)