# Fundamentalist reaction to Lord of the Rings **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894 "2011-07-21T19:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/61 "2011-07-25T02:07:09Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > There were no Christian objections to _The Lord of the Rings_ or to _The Chronicles of Narnia_ in the 1950’s. I would guess that this is true. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > It was only after Harry Potter books came out that some Christian fundamentalists started by objecting to the Harry Potter books and later extended their objections to Tolkien and Lewis when it was pointed out that they weren’t being consistent. I suspect that this is not. I knew a few folks who were upset by the Narnia series back in the 1970s and the authors of [this diatribe](http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/cs_lewis-fool.htm) talk about their parents being upset by Lewis when the authors were children which would have had to have been prior to Harry Potter. I would agree that any large movement probably only began after the success of Harry Potter, but I do not think it is accurate to say that such revulsion only began as a reaction to the Harry Potter books. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/62 "2011-07-25T03:38:45Z")
I go to church once a year, whether I need it or not. Some years ago at my folk’s Methodist church, the Christmas Eve sermon was entitled “Of Hobbits and Hogwarts” and it was a _positive_ take on the Christ-like qualities of Harry Potter and Frodo. Part of me was quite bemused by it, but I wasn’t sure it worked for a pastor to be so geekily pop-culture derivative. Just thought I’d share that. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/63 "2011-07-25T06:09:10Z")
I still think that the fad aspect probably is the key factor. Explicit references to spells and witchcraft did not provoke controversy about, say, the TV show Bewitched. [http://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/21815](http://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/21815) (Link says that any controversy about Bewitched-- presumably other than the burning “two Darrins” issue-- was cobbled up well after the TV show’s run. Cobbled together after the HP thing started, in fact.) What’ll provoke a controversy also seems to be something of a crapshoot, though. Anybody remember the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ antipathy to the Smurfs back in the 80s? Sure, I guess you could call Smurfs a fad, so there’s that, but it was more of WTF than anything. ---
**Author:** ![KKKK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KKKK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KKKK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/64 "2011-07-25T08:32:34Z")
Nitpick:Digory’s uncle, not Polly’s. > [@BigT](#): > > Very astute of you. All the horror stories about Harry Potter were based around the concept that kids would learn about witchcraft from it. It was often portrayed as a guide to becoming a witch or wizard. The fact that it was portrayed so realistically was the problem. They believed this was what real believers in magick thought. > > The fact that it was our protagonist, who thought he was a normal human, had the same problem. In the other works mentioned, the human protagonists didn’t do magic. In fact, in Narnia, the one human who did do magic, Polly and Digory’s uncle, was explicitly declared to be evil. And witchcraft was explicitly condemned in _Prince Caspian_. > > That’s the thing. Fundamentalists generally don’t have something against all magic, just witchcraft. I wish I could describe the difference, but I’ll leave that to someone else. The one thing I know is that magic from other people doesn’t count. And, oddly enough, shows like Bewitched or Sabrina the Teenaged Witch generally don’t count, ei > > Perhaps it is because Harry wears black. I do know there is a definite creep out factor with wearing black, and anything creepy is bad. ---
**Author:** ![KKKK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KKKK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KKKK)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/65 "2011-07-25T08:36:36Z")
Well, Gandalf used magic to conjure fire on Caradhras, and again to seal the door against the orcs in Moria. Elrond conjured a flood to stop the Black Riders. And Galadriel had her mirror. > [@David42](#): > > [spoiler] > But it was universally condemned. Frodo didn’t use the ring out of a belief that it was good–he was giving in against his will. This is not approval. > > Gandalf undeniably had great power. In addition to any innate power, he wore Narya, the ring of fire. Nevertheless, any use of the power available to Gandalf was always downplayed. Any power he used directly in the books seems to be limited to light. There is the episode in the balrog, where it is implied he must have used great power to defeat the demon, but it is not portrayed in the books. The movies portray the fight with the balrog, but that is Peter Jackson’s doing, not Tolkien’s. Use of magic power by the good guys is definitely lacking in the books, whereas it is used widely by the bad guys (ringwraiths/Saruman. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/66 "2011-07-25T20:55:47Z")
How about _The Craft_? (explicitly non-Christian) How about _Charmed_? (Christian-friendly lite) I don’t remember the howls of condemnation around those, though they’re both stoked with oodles of witchcraft, uppity women, spells, and… one of the Charmed Ones marries a demon…:eek: good times. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/67 "2011-07-25T21:02:17Z")
What about _Supernatural_ (heavily Christian-influenced)? Spells, demons, uppity men, hard rock, evil angels, good demons, sex with demons and angels… :eek: When do they come in for some Christian “love”? And the _Vampire Diaries_ and _Buffy_ and _Angel_, and… and… etc. Honestly, the fundamentalist occultbusters have more on their hands than they can keep up with… ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/68 "2011-07-25T22:51:11Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Some years ago at my folk’s Methodist church, the Christmas Eve sermon was entitled “Of Hobbits and Hogwarts” and it was a _positive_ take on the Christ-like qualities of Harry Potter and Frodo. > > Part of me was quite bemused by it, but I wasn’t sure it worked for a pastor to be so geekily pop-culture derivative. It never occurred to me to wonder if my Tolkien-geek\* Methodist minister uncle ever used his geekiness in a sermon, but now I do. 😉 \*In seminary, he used to take notes in the rune alphabet from the LOTR appendix. That’s geek to me. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/69 "2011-07-25T23:42:16Z")
My priest has definitely used Tolkien references in his sermons. A couple of years ago, he used a bit from the first appearance of Gandalf the White in his Easter sermon. And my dad was already objecting to both Tolkien and Lewis some time in the 80s. His antipathy towards Harry Potter and D&D is much stronger, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/70 "2011-07-26T20:53:02Z")
It is not entirely clear to me what the fundies believe. Around 1980, when my kids were playing D & D all the time, it became clear that some of them objected because they honestly thought that the kids actually invoking supernatural powers, rather than pretending to. Implicit in a few posts, especially one by puddleglum, would appear to be that fundies believe that magic is actually possible (and genuinely evil). Is this really what they think? FWIW, I have read LOTR four or five times and, utterly ignorant as I am of Christian theology, I got no whiff of religion from it. I suppose I am just tone-deaf for religion. When I was growing up and discovered sci-fi, my mother called it escapist (what literature isn’t?) It was widely predicted I would get over it. Up to age 74 at least, I haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/71 "2011-07-26T21:14:25Z")
Wow. I know some REALLY fundamentalist conservative Christians, and while a few object to Harry Potter, all of them are fine with Tolkien and adore CS Lewis. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/72 "2011-07-26T23:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > FWIW, I have read LOTR four or five times and, utterly ignorant as I am of Christian theology, I got no whiff of religion from it. I suppose I am just tone-deaf for religion. It’s in there, but it’s awfully subtle. Most of it is grand themes and their interplay, any of which could also show up in non-religious works. And there are a few indirect references to God, though you probably wouldn’t notice any of them without reading the Appendices and/or Silmarillion. Off the top of my head: “Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker”-- The only being in Tolkien’s legendarium with that level of power and subtlety is God. Gandalf being sent back into the World, after the fight with the Balrog-- Again, the only being with the power and authority to send him back into the World from outside it would be God. Gandalf telling the Balrog “I am a servant of the Secret Flame”-- The Secret Flame is the word used in the Silmarillion for the Holy Spirit. In the appendix on Aragorn and Arwen, Aragorn makes mention of mortality being the One’s gift to humans-- It’s pretty easy to figure out who the One is in this context, but you’d never see it if you just read the main text. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/73 "2011-07-26T23:23:09Z")
Hari Seldon: I’ve played D&D for 32 years and been an DM most of that time. As far as I can tell, many of the fundies actually believe the books are being used to cast real spells. Chick Publications issued a book on witchcraft in which the author claimed all DMs were actually in contact with demons. Chick also issued a tract, _Dark Dungeons_, in which a witch used the game to teach real magic to gullible teenagers. \*Legends & Lore \*didn’t help matters as that book contained pantheons of gods for characters to worship. Some of the evil dieties required human sacrifice and this got the fundies to howling. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/74 "2011-07-26T23:52:47Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > \*Legends & Lore \*didn’t help matters as that book contained pantheons of gods for characters to worship. Some of the evil dieties required human sacrifice and this got the fundies to howling. Heh, and recall that _that_ volume was originally entitled “Deities and Demi-Gods”. 🙂 **Hari Seldon** , the fundamentalist fiancee of a ex-co-worker of mine once recounted to me how she had awoken in the night to find a demonic presence in her room. She woke up her flatmate and the two of them prayed until they managed to make it leave. If your worldview allows for such things then it’s a very small step to believing that books of spells can have actual power. (In a way I felt quite sad for her, she was a rather nice lass, and based on what she believed lived in a very dangerous and scary world). ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/75 "2011-07-27T16:49:06Z")
Just wanted to add a tidbit about LOTR: all the religious analysis that I’ve seen of the influence of Tolkein’s Catholicism in the books (and to the skeptics, it’s very much there) highlight that the world of LOTR is “ **pre-Christian** ,” i.e. it’s a world that had not yet been saved by the appearance of the Son of God, yet one still featuring a clash of good versus evil consistent with Christian theology. Of course, to be technical about it, Middle Earth ain’t Earth, but the analogy holds. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894/76 "2011-07-27T17:32:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, to be technical about it, Middle Earth ain’t Earth, but the analogy holds. Depends what you mean by “technical”. According to Tolkien himself, it is: Middle Earth isn’t an imaginary place; it’s a real place in an imaginary time. And he goes to pains in the books to make it clear that Middle Earth is astronomically identical to our world (though unfortunately his knowledge of astronomy was weak enough that he didn’t do as good a job of this as he should have). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-reaction-to-lord-of-the-rings/589894.md?page=3)