# Fundies now trying to outbreed the rest of us. Talk about dysgenic pressure! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739 "2006-11-16T21:50:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/61 "2006-11-20T02:47:00Z")
It’s a Bible quote. [Psalm 127](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20127:4-6;&version=31;) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/62 "2006-11-20T02:59:46Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] You’re saying that the Catholic Church made a point of being against birth control before it was an option? [/QUOTE] [It has **always** been an option.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control#History) As I understand it, at some periods the Church took great pains to keep that from being widely known; at other periods it was willing to wink at such practices provided they were practiced discreetly. Ditto with abortion, actually. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/63 "2006-11-20T03:02:58Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] I suppose “quiverfull” comes from the idea of having a quiver full of arrows? And I suppose the analogy is that you are creating a quiver full of arrows to use to fight the good fight. So you are manufacturing humans (your children) as a weapon to pursue your personal agenda. That’s, errr, nice. I guess. [/QUOTE] Made clear in the article linked in to OP. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/64 "2006-11-20T03:28:06Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [It has **always** been an option.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control#History) [/QUOTE] Well sure, but I suspect what \*\*Tomndebb \*\* means is “before it became an option that was very reliable in theory and practice”. I’m sure you are not trying to suggest that there hasn’t been a quantum leap in the practical effectiveness of birth control in the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/65 "2006-11-20T03:32:24Z")
I should clarify that when I say “last few” I’m thinking in the context of the lifespan of the Catholic Church ie the last several decades (“last few” years compared to the couple of thousand years the church has been around). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/66 "2006-11-20T03:44:05Z")
The Catholic Church’s position on sex, in general, has been that it is primarily (on occasions, they have leaned toward exclusively), for the procreation of children. Throughout several centuries, the RCC was the only show in town, and so did not need to promote birth for the purpose of out-breeding any other group. Given that context as a moral stance (which may or may not have at its basis some sort of “fear” or “hatred” of sex), it is silly to claim that the RCC decided at some point to push for procreation simply to push a reproductive arms race with some other group or to claim that it was not based in (the church’s view of) morality. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/67 "2006-11-20T05:18:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I wish you were making up how disdainful you are of other peoples’ religious beliefs. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I do not wish that, nor should I.\* Nor should **you.** Besides, Catholicism is a cult, not a religion! 😉 \*The Unitarian Church in which I was raised teaches respect for all faiths, but the teachings do not always take; and in any case, as Unitarianism has no hard-and-fast doctrines, I can’t really be considered a heretic. 😃 Besides, as we all know, [there is only One True Church!](http://www.subgenius.com/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/68 "2006-11-20T05:30:58Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] Well sure, but I suspect what \*\*Tomndebb \*\* means is “before it became an option that was very reliable in theory and practice”. I’m sure you are not trying to suggest that there hasn’t been a quantum leap in the practical effectiveness of birth control in the last few years. [/QUOTE] Quite true, and I believe Catholic doctrine evolved, in the 19th and 20th Centuries, in reaction to that. Would it had, to the contrary, evolved in accommodation/encouragement of it. ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/69 "2006-11-20T14:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I see your point, but it’s not like they decided to build this big house, couldn’t pay for it, and went on the show to do so. [/QUOTE] There’s been some speculation that this is exactly what happened, actually. Granted, no one knows the exact story, but there’s a very good chance that they got in over their head with the house, were having trouble finishing it, and TLC stepped in and finished it in exchange for a few more TV specials. Thing is, I actually like the kids in this family from the specials - they seem like good kids. And the parents may have 1983 hairstyles, but I do believe for the most part, they are incredibly self-supporting. The house thing just rubbed me the wrong way when they claim to do the work with their own two hands (although it seems dangerous to me to use a bunch of kids for free labor), but TLC stepped in to finish the house. That’s what I find hypocritical. E. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/70 "2006-11-20T15:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=Elza B] There’s been some speculation that this is exactly what happened, actually. Granted, no one knows the exact story, but there’s a very good chance that they got in over their head with the house, were having trouble finishing it, and TLC stepped in and finished it in exchange for a few more TV specials. [/QUOTE] Is there any evidence for this whatsoever? > [@](#): > > Thing is, I actually like the kids in this family from the specials - they seem like good kids. And the parents may have 1983 hairstyles, but I do believe for the most part, they are incredibly self-supporting. The house thing just rubbed me the wrong way when they claim to do the work with their own two hands (although it seems dangerous to me to use a bunch of kids for free labor), but TLC stepped in to finish the house. That’s what I find hypocritical. > > E. Well, IF that is what happened, I guess I can see your point (although I don’t exactly see what is wrong with finding a way to pay for something you went into debt for…it’s certainly better than the alternative a lot of people do of declaring bankruptcy…now THAT would be hypocritical. But, as I say, we have no evidence that this is even the case. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/71 "2006-11-20T22:56:23Z")
[A few](http://womens-health.health-cares.net/fertility-awareness-method.php) [cites](http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/sexual_health/ssc/fam.htm) [about Fertility Awareness.](http://www.americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/fertilityawarenessNFP.html)It is _not_ The Rhythm Method. It tracks reliable hormonal changes which signify fertility. The usual cited figure for pregnancy prevention with NFP/FAM is a failure rate of 1-9%, if used correctly. There are some very good secular, not Catholic, guides to FAM. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/72 "2006-11-21T02:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Lissla Lissar] [A few](http://womens-health.health-cares.net/fertility-awareness-method.php) [cites](http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/sexual_health/ssc/fam.htm) [about Fertility Awareness.](http://www.americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/fertilityawarenessNFP.html)It is _not_ The Rhythm Method. It tracks reliable hormonal changes which signify fertility. The usual cited figure for pregnancy prevention with NFP/FAM is a failure rate of 1-9%, if used correctly. There are some very good secular, not Catholic, guides to FAM. [/QUOTE] I meant to mention this, earlier. Many people who use NFP are not Catholic…they are just people who are dissatisfied for one reason or another with other forms of birth control, and are interested in natural methods. It is a perfectly legitimate form of birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/73 "2006-11-21T02:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I meant to mention this, earlier. Many people who use NFP are not Catholic…they are just people who are dissatisfied for one reason or another with other forms of birth control, and are interested in natural methods. It is a perfectly legitimate form of birth control. [/QUOTE] Hell, if you wanted to, couldn’t you combine it with other methods, just to be on the safe side? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/74 "2006-11-21T02:39:05Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Hell, if you wanted to, couldn’t you combine it with other methods, just to be on the safe side? [/QUOTE] Yes, and a lot of people do this, too. NFP combined with a condom is pretty fail-safe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/75 "2006-11-21T03:56:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Yes, and a lot of people do this, too. NFP combined with a condom is pretty fail-safe. [/QUOTE] So is a condom by itself, but does your false damned Church or your false damned God allow its use? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/76 "2006-11-21T04:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] So is a condom by itself, but does your false damned Church or your false damned God allow its use? [/QUOTE] Any two methods are better than one, and as I said, NFP is not just for Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/77 "2006-11-21T04:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] So is a condom by itself, but does your false damned Church or your false damned God allow its use? [/QUOTE] Must you be such a jackass? Not every Catholic follows the church’s position on birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/78 "2006-11-21T04:19:56Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Not every Catholic follows the church’s position on birth control. [/QUOTE] That is true, many don’t, and I’m certainly not inclined to try to convince anyone to use NFP based on Catholic doctrine. Everyone here knows I am pro-life, but I am NOT anti-contraception, no matter what assumptions people may want to make about me. I understand the Catholic restriction on birth control, but it really is only relevant within a marital relationship, anyway. I would certainly rather people use contraception than have unwanted pregnancies that will result in abortions or unhappy parents. The fact is, as I said, many people are dissatisfied with available forms of contraception. Some don’t want to or can’t use hormonal methods, for example. Some people DO want to use two methods, to be extra sure. It never will hurt ANYONE to understand the changes women’s bodies go through during each cycle, and how these changes relate to ovulation & the likelihood of conception (this understanding helps a lot when you want to get pregnant, as well as when you don’t want to get pregnant). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/79 "2006-11-21T04:21:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The fact is, as I said, many people are dissatisfied with available forms of contraception. Some don’t want to or can’t use hormonal methods, for example. Some people DO want to use two methods, to be extra sure. It never will hurt ANYONE to understand the changes women’s bodies go through during each cycle, and how these changes relate to ovulation & the likelihood of conception (this understanding helps a lot when you want to get pregnant, as well as when you don’t want to get pregnant). [/QUOTE] Indeed, I think a lot of people use NFP when they want to GET pregnant, not just to prevent it from happening. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739/80 "2006-11-21T04:31:09Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Must you be such a jackass? Not every Catholic follows the church’s position on birth control. [/QUOTE] Look, did it ever occur to you that **BrainGlutton** thought he was referring to a fundie church. Surely you wouldn’t have a problem with that would you ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundies-now-trying-to-outbreed-the-rest-of-us-talk-about-dysgenic-pressure/380739.md?page=5)