# Funny characters in old English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 27, 2002, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079 "2002-11-27T08:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/1 "2002-11-27T08:48:27Z")
At the weekend, I was lucky enough to visit the picturesque city of Bath in western England. While in Bath Abbey (the current structure built in the 1600s, I believe) I noticed some differences in how some words were written on some of the earlier grave stones. Basically, there seemed to be an almost “f” like character replacing some of the “s” characters. For example, on one grave, “husband” was spelt “hufband”. It should be noted that the character was not a perfect “f” shape, the horizontal line through the middle of the vertical line was only marked on the left hand side (hard to explain, I know), but there was a perfectly good “s” used later on the same grave so it can’t have just been a poor or olden day representation of that. Can anyone enlighten me on what this was about? IIRC the grave was from the 1700s. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/2 "2002-11-27T08:55:44Z")
This was the traditional way of writing S until around the year 1800. Basically, from the medieval period the “f”-like character was used within a work, with the “s” we know being used only at the end of a word. This was true of not just English, but other European languages. The German character ß is actually just the “f”-like “s” and the letter “z” written together, so “sz.” Medieval writers also did the same with Greek, with lowercase sigma being written in a different way if it was within a word or at the end. This is not only a British affair, but was common in America during the colonial period. The writings of America’s founding fathers were printed this way. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/3 "2002-11-27T09:01:01Z")
Cecil speaketh: [Why did 18th-century writers use F inftead of S?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_110.html) ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/4 "2002-11-27T14:44:39Z")
Dang. I thought I was gonna get to show off my knowledge of thorn, eth, ash, and yogh. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/5 "2002-11-27T14:46:02Z")
Sounds like a law firm, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![RedNaxela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ad7895/32.png) [@RedNaxela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedNaxela)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/6 "2002-11-27T14:59:29Z")
\ **Unu** , actually, the German character you mention stands for double-S (as in _Straße_ = street), not the combination “sz” (which is used in Polish and some other Slavic languages, but not German, AFAIK). ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/7 "2002-11-27T15:07:08Z")
The confusion probably arises over the fact that that character is called the “ess-tset,” which combines the German word for the letter _s_ with the German word for the letter _z_. By the way, German no longer uses this character, as I understand the recent changes in German orthography. ---
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/8 "2002-11-27T15:08:46Z")
Thanks guys! I knew this was the best place to ask. 🙂 Sorry for not checking the Cecil archive properly, I did check the forum but it was a difficult thing to search for! :o ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/9 "2002-11-27T15:39:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedNaxela \* > \*\*\ > > **Unu** , actually, the German character you mention stands for double-S (as in _Straße_ = street), not the combination “sz” (which is used in Polish and some other Slavic languages, but not German, AFAIK). \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KneadToKnow \* > \*\*The confusion probably arises over the fact that that character is called the “ess-tset,” which combines the German word for the letter _s_ with the German word for the letter _z_. > > By the way, German no longer uses this character, as I understand the recent changes in German orthography. \*\* No confusion here, look at the character! It’s the old way of writing medial S joined to the old way of writing Z! I regretably can’t type the two symbols here, but just draw a line right down the middle of ß and you’ll see. Yes, “ss” is used for “ß” now in Germany (although AFAIK Austria has not accepted the spelling reforms, and a lot of Germans wanted to go back to the old spellings), but it was derived from “sz”. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/10 "2002-11-27T15:42:31Z")
Reminds me of the episode of “Cheers” in which Woody has been reading the U.S. Constitution, and declares that we all have an inalienable right to “life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff.” ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/11 "2002-11-27T15:43:03Z")
[Here’s](http://members.cox.net/hessen/learninggerman.htm) a cite to show that the character did come from “sZ” UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/12 "2002-11-27T17:34:16Z")
As far as my German prof has told our class, the rules for using the ß have changed, but it is still present (some words that used to have ß in them do not anymore, i believe “mussen” used to be “mußen”, but I don’t have my book handy). In Germany, the ß is still used in places, but isn’t quite as common. I believe that Switzerland completely eliminated the use of it and replaced it totally with ‘ss’. I’m not sure about Austria, though. (If I get anything wrong in this post, forgive me, Dopers!) ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/13 "2002-11-27T19:40:01Z")
From the “amtliche Regelung der deutschen Rechtschreibung” (official regulation of German orthography), straight from the [Duden](http://www.duden.de) guys. > [@](#): > > § 25 > > Für das scharfe (stimmlose) [s] nach langem Vokal oder Diphthong schreibt man ß, wenn im Wortstamm kein weiterer Konsonant folgt. It basically says, “the unvoiced [s] after long vowels will be written as ß, if there are no following consonants in the infinitive.” Like in “Maß, Straße, Grieß, Spieß, groß, grüßen; außen, außer, draußen, Strauß, beißen, Fleiß” or “heißen”. ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/14 "2002-11-27T19:42:33Z")
… “long vowels OR DIPHTHONGS”, of course. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/15 "2002-11-27T20:26:22Z")
Some damned funny characters in modern English too, but they are mostly in the House of Lords. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/funny-characters-in-old-english/139079/16 "2002-11-28T01:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jackelope \* > Reminds me of the episode of “Cheers” in which Woody has been reading the U.S. Constitution, and declares that we all have an inalienable right to “life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff.” Also reminds me of the sketch from [Stan Freberg Presents the United States of America](http://freberg.8m.com/text/usa1.html): > [@](#): > > Franklin: Well, lemme look at it here - When in the course of human events - so and so and so and so, so and so and so and so - that among these are life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff? > > Jefferson: That’s pursuit of happiness. > > Franklin: Well, all your s’s look like f’s. > > Jefferson: It’s stylish. It’s in, it’s very in.