# Furious mom sends scolding email to son's fiance re her etiquette lapses. Are her criticisms valid?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 1, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457 "2011-07-01T01:07:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/41 "2011-07-01T04:14:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Here, the mother-in-law is implying that not being rich is, in itself, a breach of etiquette. And if the couple want to indulge in a little fantasy for their wedding (what better time?) and get married in a castle, and have budgeted money for that, that’s their call. Everyone can afford a few luxuries, and apparently this is one they’ve decided on.
I assumed from the way her complaint was phrased that the couple had _not_ in fact budgeted the money to get married in a castle, and were hitting the groom’s parents up for money – in which case, this paragraph is possibly the least offensive part of the e-mail, although she did manage to phrase it in the most snobbish and high-handed way imaginable.
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/42 "2011-07-01T04:16:24Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#):
>
> Miss Manners would say yes, it’s rude to point out another’s rudeness unless you are a parent, teacher or some other individual charged with informing others of proper etiquette.
In Hundred Years Ago Upper Class English World where the MIL currently resides, she would be regarded as being her son’s fiancee’s superior, and permitted, nay, it would be her duty, to correct her DIL to be’s manners.
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### Author:  [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/43 "2011-07-01T04:31:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Here’s the thing; you don’t know if her criticisms are valid.
>
> You don’t know what might have been pulled wildly out of context, or exagerrated.
Naturally. We’re getting only one side of the story, there could be all sorts of details we don’t know etc. But the OP asked for our views on the validity of the criticisms. I took it as read that we were being asked to say whether it was reasonable for the mother-in-law even to raise any of the issues as breaches of etiquette.
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### Author:  [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/44 "2011-07-01T04:32:12Z")
This is a slam dunk for the MIL.
_ **First,** _ an invitation to stay at someone’s room does not entitle you to sleep in as late as you like or to have the hosts fill their larder to your satisfaction. It is not a hotel. I see a lot of people here saying, “The responsibility of the host to ensure the comfort of their guest!” Quite wrong. The responsibility of the host to _host_ the guest, which is something different than “ensuring comfort,” as if you were merely a service provider.
For like reasons, a thank note is _always_ required. I read other commentary elsewhere where someone said, “I always thank the host with a hug [big fucking deal!] or a host gift. Never a note unless they are a close friend or loved relative.” Hopefully, it is obvious what is wrong with this utter selfish POV. In short, if you have such little affection for your host that writing a letter to him or her is beneath you, then find a hotel room.
_ **Second,** _ a lot of people complain that the MIL had little tolerance for the fiancee’s complaints of diabetes. Here again, MIL is correct. Diabetes, as the millions of people who have it under control demonstrate, is an unfortunate chronic condition that can, thankfully, be controlled with foresight. Particularly in the United States, the misapprehension exists that a diagnosis (from a legitimate medical source or as a result of casual Googling) is a license to dispense with courtesy and consideration. It is not. And it is an affront to the millions of people with medical conditions who do manage their health issues without eagerly foisting burdens on others to suggest otherwise.
_ **Third,** _ some have objected to MIL’s remark about wedding financing. Frankly, it is expected that you will have saved some money for this, and if you have not and are looking to another to foot the bill (which MIL allows can happen in even the best of circumstances), then castle-weddings are right out. I also share MIL’s surmise that uncouthness, improvidence, and an outsized sense of entitlement are frequently found together.
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### Author:  [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/45 "2011-07-01T04:34:55Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#):
>
> This is a slam dunk for the MIL.
>
> _ **First,** _ an invitation to stay at someone’s room does not entitle you to sleep in as late as you like or to have the hosts fill their larder to your satisfaction. It is not a hotel. I see a lot of people here saying, “The responsibility of the host to ensure the comfort of their guest!” Quite wrong. The responsibility of the host to _host_ the guest, which is something different than “ensuring comfort,” as if you were merely a service provider.
How, exactly, does allowing one’s guest to sleep in require any effort whatsoever?
It’s not like you have to wait on someone hand and foot while they’re sleeping. By definition, it requires **no effort** for a host to allow a guest to sleep in.
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### Author:  [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/46 "2011-07-01T04:36:56Z")
You all seem to be using your own contexts for critiquing the email and subsequent furore. Very similar to the future MIL’s behaviour towards the fiance.
I do fault her for sending this as an email rather than a hand writtten letter. If she’d done that, perhaps she would have moderated it a bit, having to take more time to do the writing.
Also, there is no indication in the article of the number of times the fiance had stayed at the house. This may have been the end of a long running passive-aggressive battle between the two of them.
Who knows? None of us and certainly not the Daily Mail.
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### Author:  [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/47 "2011-07-01T04:39:10Z")
> [@markdash](#):
>
> How, exactly, does allowing one’s guest to sleep in require any effort whatsoever?
A host hosts a guest because the host wants to visit with his or her guest. To fail to abide by the reasonable waking hours of the household is to send the message that the guest sees the host as just a really cheap lodging provider to whom the guest has no responsibilities, such as being congenial company.
I think it is symptomatic of an age where entertaining is on the decline that most people, accustomed more to going to hotels and restaurants, do not understand the difference between being a customer and being a guest. And so fail to understand that there is behavior that is quite permissible when you are paying a stranger which becomes rather rude when directed to a hospitable friend or relative.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/48 "2011-07-01T04:45:08Z")
> [@Princhester](#):
>
> In Hundred Years Ago Upper Class English World where the MIL currently resides, she would be regarded as being her son’s fiancee’s superior, and permitted, nay, it would be her duty, to correct her DIL to be’s manners.
That sucks. Sounds like she needs a time machine. Modern etiquette says she’s a bitch. (Note, however, that telling her that would make you the bitch. This is both the gift and the curse of politeness.)
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/49 "2011-07-01T04:52:55Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#):
>
> A host hosts a guest because the host wants to visit with his or her guest.
No, a host hosts a guest to facilitate the guest’s visiting them (and their home, family, and town). While we hope and presume that the host _will_ enjoy the guest’s presence, it is fundamentally unwelcoming to view or portray the visit as serving the host’s desires.
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### Author:  [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/50 "2011-07-01T04:57:03Z")
> [@spark240](#):
>
> No, a host hosts a guest to facilitate the guest’s visiting them (and their home, family, and town). While we hope and presume that the host _will_ enjoy the guest’s presence, it is fundamentally unwelcoming to view or portray the visit as serving the host’s desires.
The way I “facilitate” the visits of guests who have sentiments such as these is by letting them know where a nearby Holiday Inn is.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/51 "2011-07-01T04:59:35Z")
And I imagine they’re quite pleased to take advantage of it.
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/52 "2011-07-01T04:59:56Z")
nm
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### Author:  [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/53 "2011-07-01T05:03:51Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#):
>
> And I imagine they’re quite pleased to take advantage of it.
I know you think you got a sick burn in, Milkshakes, but if your ultimate value is that everyone ends up happy, then that’s precisely what’s been achieved if “they’re quite pleased to take advantage of it,” isn’t it?
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/54 "2011-07-01T05:05:17Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#):
>
> …Since when is it rude for a guest to sleep in if they want to?
It’s not unless there’s a meal or activity planned and the guest has been informed prior to going to bed. I could also see how it’d be a bit rude if the guest was sleeping in a “public area” of the house, like on a sofabed in the living room (though I’m sure some schools of etiquette dictate that a host without a proper guestroom turn their own bedroom over to the guest ;)).
> [@monstro](#):
>
> …Sleeping in when no one else is a ridiculous nitpick. How is she supposed to know if everyone wakes up early? That reminds me of that scene in “Meet the Parents” when he stumbles into the kitchen in pajamas while everyone else is dressed and eating breakfast. If anything, that’s Freddie dropping the ball, not the fiance…
Whether you’re expected to be dressed for breakfast is another thing a guest should be told by the host. The host should not take it for granted the guest already knows; every family is different. I went to Australia & New Zealand with a youth group in high school. Homestays in both countries. My Aussie host-mum just served stuff like cereal and toast for breakfast and sat in front of me smiling while I put vegimite on toast; she was in pyjamas and a bathrobe. My Kiwi host-mum got up way before everyone else to make these huge English breakfasts while wearing a dress and make up. She acted like she did this everyday, but the confused looks on host-dad and host-brother told a different story (host-bro later told me she only does for Christmas & Easter). I was friends with the German exchange student we had senior year. She was told at orientation (before being sent to her host family) specifically to ask her host-family if she should dress for breakfast. I don’t know exactly what her words were, but somehow they got the impression that German families typically eat breakfast naked (granted I sure some do).
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#):
>
> I assumed from the way her complaint was phrased that the couple had _not_ in fact budgeted the money to get married in a castle, and were hitting the groom’s parents up for money – in which case, this paragraph is possibly the least offensive part of the e-mail, although she did manage to phrase it in the most snobbish and high-handed way imaginable.
How much does a castle wedding in England cost anyway? Is it some hugely expensive deal, or something on par with renting public park or hotel conferance room? Either way this is another reason why if I ever get married I’ll refuse to accept so much as a penny toward the wedding from anyone other than my fiance. I think the entire idea of parents being expected to save up and contribute anyting toward their adult children’s wedding is ridiculous in this day and age.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/55 "2011-07-01T05:08:00Z")
Someone’s been hanging out at the snarkpit. Naughty Kimmy!
And yes, if your guests are happy to stay at a Holiday Inn and you’re happy to have them there, huzzah, confetti all around. However, that means that (hypothetically, of course) you suck failsauce at being a host.
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/56 "2011-07-01T05:13:19Z")
Anyone else get the feeling that this potential MiL would be equally offended if her son and (future)-daughter-in-law insisted on staying in a local hotel rather than sleep in her house whenever they were in town?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/57 "2011-07-01T05:18:23Z")
The daughter in law is mildly rude in some respects (though sleeping late is not one of them).
The MIL is a raging, control freak bitch.
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### Author:  [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/58 "2011-07-01T05:47:40Z")
Holy crap, threads like this make me afraid to set foot in someone else’s house, for fear of accidentally offending my host. Maybe the future DIL and MIL should try meeting in public places only for their visits.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/59 "2011-07-01T05:57:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Members of the family do not wait for invitation before dishing up seconds. Members of the family help themselves. And this young lady is already darned close to being a member of the family, and will officially be one soon enough.
It depends if it’s a formal setting or not. For a formal meal, you don’t ask for a second helping, because that disrupts the progression of the courses. For an informal dinner, where the guest is close friends with the host or hostess, requesting seconds is a complement to the hostess, and for the host or hostess to offer seconds is just being a good host. But, of course, in general, the guest should request seconds rather than just taking them.
Regarding the breakfast question, Emily Holt in her 1915 “Encyclopaedia of Etiquette”, reminds:
> [@](#):
>
> If it is the practice of the family to gather about a breakfast table promptly every morning, then it is a poor complement for the visitor to disturb her entertainers by forcing them to wait until a slow toilet is completed.
and more generally:
> [@](#):
>
> Arrived at his or her destination, and made welcome, the ideal visitor, without doing violence to physical strength or strong personal preferences, essays to fall in with the customs of the household as nearly as possible and to find pleasure and occupation in the diversions provided by the host and hostess.
And seeking to rent out a castle for one’s wedding does seem rather gauche.
I think that in this particular situation, the guest seems to have made some breaches of etiquette, and it’s certainly the hostesses’ privilege to be put out and not to invite the impolite guest to stay with her anymore. However, that being said, even assuming the hostess had the best of intentions, that letter’s tone is rude and calculated to shame the guest, and that’s something a good hostess, or in fact, a good person, doesn’t do.
For that matter, I’m puzzled by the reaction of the woman who got that e-mail. My first reaction to an e-mail pointing out my breaches of etiquette wouldn’t be to send it to my friends, much less make sure it got in the hands of the newspapers. I wouldn’t be surprised if this whole thing were some publicity stunt the two families had cooked up.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/60 "2011-07-01T06:02:32Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#):
>
> For like reasons, a thank note is _always_ required. I read other commentary elsewhere where someone said, “I always thank the host with a hug [big fucking deal!] or a host gift. Never a note unless they are a close friend or loved relative.” Hopefully, it is obvious what is wrong with this utter selfish POV. In short, if you have such little affection for your host that writing a letter to him or her is beneath you, then find a hotel room.
Say what? Not only is that not some universal rule, it’s one that I never even heard of until this thread. It would never occur to me to write a note or that someone should send me one. It comes across as a relic of the pre-telephone and easy travel days; these days sending a note is what you do when you are trying to keep your distance, not when you are trying to be friendly.
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#):
>
> _ **Second,** _ a lot of people complain that the MIL had little tolerance for the fiancee’s complaints of diabetes. Here again, MIL is correct.
No, she isn’t. Being a host means that you show your guests extra consideration, especially for something they can’t help like a health issue; not sneer at their weakness like some rabid Social Darwinist.
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