# Furious mom sends scolding email to son's fiance re her etiquette lapses. Are her criticisms valid?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 1, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457 "2011-07-01T01:07:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/121 "2011-07-01T16:02:40Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#):
>
> The MIL admits the girl had an attack during the weekend per the quoted email re diabetes in this thread.
Can you be more specific?
In any case, I’m dubious about the credibility of a newspaper that doesn’t know that the plural of “Withers” is “Witherses.”
---
### Author:  [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/122 "2011-07-01T16:02:42Z")
Anyone else picturing Hyacinth Bucket typing out these e-mails? Of course Hyacinth wouldn’t do any as gauche as using e-mail over a handwritten letter on French milled stationary.
Since the OP is about the specific criticisms and not the situation from which they arose:
The only unequivocally rude thing is beginning to eat before everyone else begins. That just plain rude and everyone should know better.
The other things are to specific to context. Is it rude to demand a certain diet when visiting? It depends. Certain foods, very commonly served in my culture, will send me into anaphylactic shock. Sorry if it offends you, but I’m not literally dyeing to try your cuisine. On the other hand if I demand you make your mashed potatoes with red potatoes rather than white then I am being an ass.
A guest should try and be up around the time the rest of the household is up, especially if breakfast is being served. But in my extended family alone that could be between 4:30 am (my parents), and 10 am (by in-laws). Who knows what was communicated and what was expected in this situation?
We don’t know the whole story between these two women so there is no way to judge the appropriateness of the criticisms.
However, the mother-in-law automatically loses this argument in my book. Why? Because she chose to deliver these criticisms by way of e-mail. If these breaches of etiquette were truly egregious enough for this response it should have been done in person, face-to-face, eye-to-eye. An e-mail was cowardly and rude. No respectable, self-possessed person would have written it.
---
### Author:  [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/123 "2011-07-01T16:03:51Z")
Post 74.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/124 "2011-07-01T16:07:13Z")
As Indistinguishable notes, it’s not clear what accounts are genuine. Absent some credible confirmation, I’m going to suspend my judgment on the diabetes issue. If I’m not mistaken, the OP wants to talk about the hypothetical points quoted regarding violations of etiquette.
---
### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/125 "2011-07-01T16:09:41Z")
Obviously, none of us know the people we’re discussing, so I won’t make any judgments as to who’s right or wrong.
All I can say is, even IF Mrs. Bourne was 100% correct in each of her criticisms (and I’m open to the possibility that she is), she handled this horribly. Knowing that her son is planning to marry Heidi, Mrs. Bourne should have taken the high road, invited Heidi to a one on one lunch or tea, and tried to explain in the kindest possible way how Heidi SHOULD have behaved.
The purpose of good manners is NOT to give us ammunition with which to embarass people! The purpose is to make social interactions more pleasant.
As it is, even if Heidi’s mannners are as awful as Mrs. Bourne claims, a nasty e-mail can’t possibly improve them. Such a note can’t do anything except reate hard feelings and turn her future daughter-in-law into an enemy.
How can that possibly be good?
---
### Author:  [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/126 "2011-07-01T16:28:22Z")
My interpretation of the whole affair
- MIL met the DIL and didnt take to her, but made an effort out of respect for her sons choice. She hosted her at the home house many times.
- As time passed she found the DIL to be extremely rude and high maintenance. But said nothing.
- As the wedding approached, they came to the mother asking for money to have the wedding in a castle.
- The straw hit the camels back, and the MIL lost patience. She felt extra money should not have been necessary, and this just reinforced her negative perception of the DIL. In the slums, this would have resulted in a catfight over a phone call, but because she was middle class, a letter was the result.
- DIL immediately justifies the MIL’s lack of faith by allowing the email to go public.
Its easy to see this as having happened because of one weekend visit by the DIL, but I suspect this built up over a course of months and years. My sympathies lie with the MIL on this one.
---
### Author:  [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/127 "2011-07-01T16:33:41Z")
The OP asks of any of the criticisms are valid. If I interpreted it wrong, I apologize, but most require some context and the context we have is from this situation. It would be nice if we knew what the girl actually dud or at least what she claims she did.
---
### Author:  [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/128 "2011-07-01T17:18:59Z")
> [@Zsofia](#):
>
> You guys don’t write thank you notes when you stay in people’s houses? Seriously? (A gift would serve as well, I suppose, but a note is nice.) I mean, close family is one thing, but I’d write a note if I was staying with somebody I had just met (like, say, my new step-monster-in-law) or somebody I don’t see on at least, say, an annual basis. Everybody likes a note. It’s special, it speaks of more appreciation than a handshake, and it costs less than a buck and a minute of your time. Seriously.
Not _everybody_. I, for instance. I don’t like a note. If I do something for you, I’m doing it because I like you and you like me. Trust me, I will _know_ if you actually appreciate what I do. I’ll know from the way you thank me in person (which presumably you will), and from a thousand little social cues. If you do genuinely appreciate it, the note is redundant; if you don’t, the note is pandering and a little bit irritating. I’ve probably hosted 100 overnight guests in my own home, and none has ever written a thank-you note (thank God!).
See, this is why the MIL in the OP (and Kimmy Gibbler, in this thread) is so very, very in the wrong. Not because their ideas of what constitutes polite behavior are wrong, but because manners are entirely context-sensitive. What is absolutely required behavior in one set of circumstances - or with one group of people - would be unexpected to even insulting in another.
Food is a good example. I come from a culture where mealtime is expected to be chaotic, fun, and informal. There are other times when _extremely_ formal behavior is expected - I’ve been to wakes and funerals of other cultures and have been surprised at how comparatively light-hearted they are - but dinner time is NOT one of those times. Virtually all of the complaints in the e-mail quoted by the OP would be laughed right out of my family’s dining room. To wit:
> [@](#):
>
> When you are a guest in another’s house, you do not declare what you will and will not eat – unless you are positively allergic to something.
In my family, feeding someone is a welcomed responsibility for the person making the meal. My grandfather would quiz me weeks in advance about the likes, dislikes, preferences, allergies, and other requirements of any girl I brought to family dinner; if I didn’t know, I’d by-god be expected to find out. He already knew the weird-ass preferences of everyone else in the house. In the end, he just made _everything_: Vegetarian lasagna for my brother, spaghetti and sausage or meatballs for me, stuffed artichokes for mom, stuffed peppers for my Aunt. Usually there’d be a plate of fried seafood of some description. Four or five different kinds of vegetables. Scalloped potatoes. Always shrimp cocktail in bulk. Expecting someone to eat food they didn’t like… why would you do that? Why would we even _want_ you to do that? Food is to be enjoyed; if you don’t enjoy this food, let’s find you something you will enjoy.
(As a sidebar, I think I know why I’m overweight).
> [@](#):
>
> You do not start before everyone else.
This is alien to me. You start when you have food on your plate. What, is someone going to blow a whistle? No one would hear it over the shouting.
> [@](#):
>
> You do not take additional helpings without being invited to by your host.
I think if, at our dinner table, you had a tray full of, say, lasagna sitting in front of you, and you asked my mother for _permission_ to have more, she’d try to have you committed. The tray is right there. Your arms broken? Why do you think I made so damn _much?_ And the alternative - sitting there quietly hungry and saying nothing - would really mortify the host. "A guest went _hungry?_ At _my table!!!_
The others are similarly strange:
> [@](#):
>
> When a guest in another’s house, you do not lie in bed until late morning in households that rise early – you fall in line with house norms.
This is dumb. When does the “household” rise? My wife gets up around 7:30 on your typical Saturday; I usually sleep in until 8:30. Our our houseguests compelled to rise with my wife, or with me? Also, WHY SHOULD WE CARE? If you’re tired, _sleep_. We like you - we wouldn’t want you in our house if we didn’t - and we want you to be well fed and well rested, because you’ll be happy and we WANT PEOPLE TO BE HAPPY IN OUR HOUSE.
But here’s the one that pisses me off:
> [@](#):
>
> I understand your parents are unable to contribute very much towards the cost of your wedding. (There is nothing wrong with that except that convention is such that one might presume they would have saved over the years for their daughters’ marriages.) If this is the case, it would be most ladylike and gracious to lower your sights and have a modest wedding as befits both your incomes.
If MIL is not paying for the wedding, then with this passage she commits the biggest faux pas of all. You do _not_ offer criticism of the financial decisions of adults with jobs. _That_ is gauche, in my opinion. It’s their money, and as long as they’re not asking you for subsidy (and if they were, I expect MIL would have included that in the letter), they can spend it as they please.
* * *
So, OK, manners vary by circumstance, fine. If someone enters a home where they are unfamiliar with the expected behavior, the approach of a decent person is NOT to wait for them to violate rules of which they may not be aware. Etiquette is not a club we can use to bludgeon people into feeling inferior; it’s a tool to make everyone a little happier. Someone who uses it as the former rather than the latter is, in my humble opinion, a gigantic jerk.
---
### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/129 "2011-07-01T17:48:02Z")
> [@spark240](#):
>
> (I find it slightly interesting that those who agree with MIL’s “sleeping in” complaint all seem to think that this meant sleeping 'til noon or something. There was nothing to suggest that; she says “late morning,” which can mean not being up and dressed at 8. For some folks around here even _that_ would mean the normal breakfast has already been missed.)
> .
Eh, I get up at 5 am every day to start my morning meds. I will happily lay back down and read quietly until everybody else is stirring. I also suffer from insomnia so it is not uncommon for me to go do breakfast with everybody and then turn around and go back to bed.
---
### Author:  [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/130 "2011-07-01T17:48:10Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#):
>
> So, OK, manners vary by circumstance, fine. If someone enters a home where they are unfamiliar with the expected behavior, the approach of a decent person is NOT to wait for them to violate rules of which they may not be aware. Etiquette is not a club we can use to bludgeon people into feeling inferior; it’s a tool to make everyone a little happier. Someone who uses it as the former rather than the latter is, in my humble opinion, a gigantic jerk.
Seconded.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/131 "2011-07-01T17:55:41Z")
> [@Zsofia](#):
>
> You guys don’t write thank you notes when you stay in people’s houses? Seriously? (A gift would serve as well, I suppose, but a note is nice.)
As I said, it would never occur to me - I’d never even heard of the custom until this thread. As for a guesting gift, I’ve only heard of that in fantasy novels not real life; if asked I’d have assumed it was part of the pseudo-medieval societies common in such books.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/132 "2011-07-01T17:57:55Z")
In my world, thanks come in the form of taking your host out to a restaurant. I can’t imagine anyone my age (42) writing thank-you notes to friends after visiting them.
---
### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/133 "2011-07-01T18:01:10Z")
> [@markdash](#):
>
> How, exactly, does allowing one’s guest to sleep in require any effort whatsoever?
>
> It’s not like you have to wait on someone hand and foot while they’re sleeping. By definition, it requires **no effort** for a host to allow a guest to sleep in.
It can be a hassle, since we might have things we’re trying to accomplish that day and have no idea if our guests are going to show up in the kitchen around 8 or 9, or 10, or 11, or later. So, I’ve got to sit around doing nothing productive until they decide to get out of bed. This would be solved if they told me the night before that they’re planning on sleeping in.
---
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/134 "2011-07-01T18:01:39Z")
You know who sends emails like the MIL sent?
Lunatics.
Sane people let shit slide and go on with the weding.
---
### Author:  [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/135 "2011-07-01T18:13:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> As I said, it would never occur to me - I’d never even heard of the custom until this thread. As for a guesting gift, I’ve only heard of that in fantasy novels not real life; if asked I’d have assumed it was part of the pseudo-medieval societies common in such books.
Really? I hate showing up someplace empty-handed. It makes me feel guilty. Guess that’s my own problem, but still…
---
### Author:  [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/136 "2011-07-01T18:37:13Z")
I think the castle quibble is really petty. FWIW [this](http://www.berkeley-castle.com/weddings.html) is their castle, it’s a open to the public and clearly advertises for wedding rentals, it’s not like she went knocking on castle doors pretending to be a distant cousin of the lord. If MIL doesn’t want to pay for the wedding they can just say “Sorry but we can’t pay for your wedding.” There’s no need to insult her family.
My overall reaction to the email was “Really? This is the worst you could find to say about this person and you still need to make a big deal about it?” Her stepson found someone he wants to marry, who has a job, and who can be bothered to go visit her future in-laws. Why would you let the fact that she sleeps in or doesn’t write handwritten notes ruin the weekend? If it’s such a huge deal tell stepson to go wake her up. Or follow up the visit with “Oh did Heidi not enjoy the visit? I never heard from her.”
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/137 "2011-07-01T18:51:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> As I said, it would never occur to me - I’d never even heard of the custom until this thread. As for a guesting gift, I’ve only heard of that in fantasy novels not real life; if asked I’d have assumed it was part of the pseudo-medieval societies common in such books.
No, you should always bring something. Doesn’t have to be much. A bottle of wine, a six pack, some cookies, or whatever, but just some token to say “thanks for having me over.”
---
### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/138 "2011-07-01T19:00:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> And seeking to rent out a castle for one’s wedding does seem rather gauche.
I can think of [several thousands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Creative_Anachronism) of people who might take issue with that.
---
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/139 "2011-07-01T19:08:19Z")
> [@sugar\_and\_spice](#):
>
> Why would you let the fact that she sleeps in or doesn’t write handwritten notes ruin the weekend? If it’s such a huge deal tell stepson to go wake her up. Or follow up the visit with “Oh did Heidi not enjoy the visit? I never heard from her.”
Did you miss my post where I specifically indicated “lunatic”?
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> And seeking to rent out a castle for one’s wedding does seem rather gauche.
Where should they get married? The VFW hall?
A lot of people get married in castles, mansions, manors, boat houses, country clubs, resorts and other places where shit looks nice.
---
### Author:  [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457/140 "2011-07-01T21:20:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> It more politely worded than saying “you’re an uncouth barbarian raised in a pig sty and I doubt you are capable of learning anything but I’ll try anyway” but that’s essentially what she’s saying. Which is rude, even if politely worded, and a sure way to generate hostility in the person addressed.
>
> Also, the crack about “unfortunately for Freddie he’s fallen in love with you” is despicable. Clearly, MIL loathes DIL. If MIL sincerely wanted to correct DIL she’d leave this crap out but what she really wants to do is drive DIL from MIL’s Precious.
Right. This is the important part. Whether or not the specific criticisms are valid is irrelevant. This isn’t the intro to a letter offering advice, even rudely given advice. This is announcing a personal attack using (probably) imagined offenses as an excuse.
–
> [@Anaamika](#):
>
> Oh yes, that is what they want. Americans often express irritation because when you’re a guest at an Indian person’s house and they offer you something, you’re supposed to refuse, and then they kind of force it on you…it’s a dance. It’s just the culture, though, and it’s silly to take offense.
What?! Damn. Apparently I’ve been a jerk, retroactively.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457.md?page=6)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/furious-mom-sends-scolding-email-to-sons-fiance-re-her-etiquette-lapses-are-her-criticisms-valid/587457.md?page=8)