# Future EV/Hybrid Plans, AWD edition! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 6, 2023, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126 "2023-08-06T00:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/82 "2024-09-08T00:22:31Z")
Bumping my thread, because part one of our much modified plan is now in the works! Between timing and budget haven’t yet moved forward with the new electrical panel and charger, but my wife was concerned that my old and abused Subaru (details upthread) would die denying us any possible trade in while having to also pay to have it dragged away, so after many talks, we’re moved forward on the revised choice for immediate vehicle, the RAV4 Prime XSE PHEV, and my poor old Subie is in the clutches of the dealership as a trade in. She was able to secure 7k in Toyota Electric vehicle incentives and another 5k from the state by going with a lease. Not her first preference, but 12k in incentives on a 53k vehicle (more loaded out than she wanted, but they’re in pretty high demand and low quantity) spoke. Even with just standard household current, figure a 10 hour charge of around 2 miles of range per hour will cover half of my wife’s daily commute, with a bit more offset for having a full charge from the weekend of course. So we’ll be using more of it’s gas range than ideal in the short-to-medium term, until we can do the new panel. Then 3-5 years from now the remaining ICE only vehicle will be replaced with whatever the best AWD BEV is on the market in our price range, and we’ll be where we wanted to be. Knock on wood, avert, and hoping all goes according to plan. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2024, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/83 "2024-09-14T07:07:38Z")
Quick update on the PHEV, which will probably be the last until December/January where we can evaluate it based on the AWD value which prompted the thread! One full week (Mon-Friday) of daily commute down for my wife. On 2 of those days, an extra evening trip (once to the movies, once to the grocery store). So daily commute is 28 miles round trip, and the two extra stops were about 4 miles round trip, so 32 total miles those two days? Result? 100% electric miles. Granted, this is a pretty good time of year, not too hot, not too cold, minimal A/C use and no heating, no loooong traffic jams either - but even given that, the Rav4 Prime was still reading about 50% remaining range by the end of the day even on the extra trip days. Plug in at 8pm (post peak) and 6-7 hours later, with plain old level 1 charging, back to full. Now she’s wondering if she’ll need to buy STA-BIL for the fuel if we don’t do a trip sometime in the next few months (which we will, a trip to Pueblo for chile next week, and a run up to Denver next month)! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2024, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/84 "2024-09-14T11:49:36Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > no loooong traffic jams either EVs are super for traffic jams. They just sit there, and only burn power when you creep forward. (And if you are running the heat or AC.) ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/85 "2024-09-14T17:10:15Z")
Oh, I know that, I just mean no stationary drain, that the miles driven all electric were more or less in step with the actual distance covered. A one-for-one ratio, rather than what reports would lead me to expect under different circumstances, such as long periods of stopped traffic with climate control on, or during those occasions of extremely cold weather that happen (both because of chemistry and additional climate control needs). ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/86 "2024-10-04T19:24:57Z")
Final PHEV update prior to being able to evaluate the actual AWD/Winter driving experience in a month or two. We’re just shy of 30 days into the Rav4 Prime. As an electric vehicle, it’s been performing very well. A few days ago, my wife was asked to do a guest lecture for a class at UCCS (where she finished her PHD a bit over a year ago). That meant a drive to work, to school, back to work, and then home. Total milage, with a good mix of highway and city miles of 48 miles (about 60/40 highway/city). STILL all electric with an estimated 6 miles range left when it got home. And, bonus points, even with the level one charging, 10 hours was enough to fully recover. In terms of cost savings, which aren’t the only reason to consider PHEV and BEV, but is worthwhile for those pondering, at current (and TBF about to go UP) KWH ratings, the full 50ish mile range should run about $2 US. A similar number of miles covered in the vehicle it replaced (my 2002 Subaru Outback sport) would have been 2.5 gallons of gas (which right now would be $3.06 at the closest, not overpriced or discounted place near me) or $7.65. TBH, the reason to get a PHEV/BEV isn’t _primarily_ about cost, as many have said, the best vehicle for the environment is one you already have outside of extreme outliers, once you factor in cost of production and everything else. But that’s still quite nice. A more interesting comparison though, is the PHEV against itself, because it’s amazingly fuel efficient on it’s own. $2 in KWH charges (it was $1.98, I rounded, sue me) vs roughly $4.03 based on the 38 mpg gas only we got in the last test. Although we’ll have to be a lot more careful about putting in higher octane gas into the new vehicle that the old subie. Aside - screw Colorado still selling 85 octane as “normal” based on 70+ year old assumptions about carbureted car performance at altitude. Still wondering what will be on the market in 3-5 years when we replace our last ICE only vehicle, and here’s hoping the AWD options improve. I don’t hate the SUV form factor, but I’m not married to it, especially when a sedan is often cheaper and more efficient to operate, but baring further “improvements” via global warming (sarcasm, SARCASM, you hear?!) removing the AWD needs (which considering how warm this year and season has been… 😓 ) those options are far more limited. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/87 "2024-10-04T19:42:23Z")
Great update. What is your energy costs there? Or, alternatively, how many kWh is it to get that 50 miles? Our car is averaging .29 kWh/mile over the 7000 miles we’ve put on it and our electricity is currently about $0.10/kWh. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/88 "2024-10-04T19:46:35Z")
Does the manual say it needs higher octane gas? Everything I’ve read says lower octane gas provides more power if it is not triggering the knock sensor. The E15 content would worry me more given how little gas it consumes over long periods… ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/89 "2024-10-04T20:36:01Z")
@wguy123 the kWh is approximate, based on it’s reporting, % remaining, and theoretical battery size. Current (heh, I kill myself) rates are very close to yours, with $0.11/kWh. Our local utility though is planning low double digit percentage increases every year for the next few as they modernize and reduce carbon footprint. Note I’m not complaining that they’ve shuttered the coal burning plants, but it is a factor in cost to others. I haven’t had a full months utility bill to do an actual hard cost per kWh and change in use, so that’ll be another update in a few months. @Tride , the manual claims it needs what would be _regular_ almost anywhere else in the states at 87 octane. But, the default in most of Colorado and many other mountain states is 85, based on old research about altitude based performance. I didn’t really care in my ancient subie, but figure it’s worth doing in the new car. Currently, in terms of it’s fuel sipping nature, we figure winter conditions (heat, reduced battery performance, etc) will engage the ICE more, and we’ll have a couple medium range trips to Denver and the like that’ll help us use fuel. Next summer though, probably need the Sta-Bil. Otherwise our current plan is once we have a complete idea on the EV v. Hybrid use for us, is to (_gasp_!) just not charge it for a couple of days to get the old gas used up, and going forward, only keep the tank around half-full outside of long trips. That way we can go through it in a controlled fashion. I mean the thing has an estimate 600 mile range with a full tank and full charge. “Only” having 300 or so with half a tank isn’t exactly a big deal, especially since the fix is pulling over to the closest gas station if needs change suddenly. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/90 "2024-10-04T22:18:54Z")
Try it on 85. There are comparisons out there that test HP vs. octane. I mean, you say that lower octane only applies to carbed engines, but air density applies to everyone. Unless you have a turbo blowing 21# of boost you’ll likely be fine. I only put 91 in my bike because that’s the only gas that is ethanol free… My 5.7L Dodge is doing fine on 85 at 205,000 miles. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/91 "2024-10-05T00:12:13Z")
I’m waiting on a callback from the Dealership. I really don’t want it to develop an issue with the ICE engine, and then the techs say “Oh, you voided the warranty by using 85 when the manual clearly says 87.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/92 "2024-10-05T00:18:06Z")
If I were you, I would not rely on what someone from the dealership tells you on a phone call if the manual says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/93 "2024-10-05T00:24:30Z")
I’m consulting a myriad of sources, I promise. But the clear language of the manual is why I was planning on sticking with the 87, especially since we plan on keeping the ICE use minimal! ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/94 "2024-10-05T02:52:04Z")
Here is this, if you feel like a white board lecture about it. Old, like really old, cars needed about 2 less octane per 1000 feet of elevation, but for anything made in the last 40 years it is closer to a 0.2 octane less per 1000 feet. 85 probably won’t damage your car, but it is also not what the car was designed for. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/kJyd6C99_3g/maxresdefault.jpg "Never Use This Gas In Your Car!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJyd6C99_3g) ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/95 "2024-10-05T03:12:09Z")
Thanks, that matches with about 70% of my research to date, although there’s another 20% or so that says “So what, the car’s computers will compensate for it _anyway_ so pay less!” and another 10 that stick with the 85 is right for the altitude. Again, it’s a brand new car, gets great milage, and we’ll be using very little gas _anyway_ so I see few advantages for saving comparatively small change and a good bit of risk in doing so. Still figure asking the dealership isn’t a bad idea though. Talk to me in a month when we’ve got the tank below half! ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/96 "2024-10-05T05:32:59Z")
Forgot to address the specific point. > [@echoreply](#): > > Old, like really old, cars needed about 2 less octane per 1000 feet of elevation, but for anything made in the last 40 years it is closer to a 0.2 octane less per 1000 feet. If true (and if it were the 1987 vehicle tested for that if I understood the video for that number), and leaving all else out, Colorado Springs is a touch over 6k. So, 6 x 0.2 = 1.2 less octane needed, and 85 wouldn’t be out of the question. But again, probably not worth running the risks of a disputed warranty claim over. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/97 "2024-10-05T13:24:32Z")
[Car and Driver octane test](https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a28565486/honda-cr-v-vs-bmw-m5-ford-f-150-dodge-charger/) Another source. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/98 "2024-10-06T14:47:48Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Now she’s wondering if she’ll need to buy STA-BIL for the fuel if we don’t do a trip sometime in the next few months. This just does not compute for me. This weekend should have been my third 500-miler in a row; however, that event was cxl’d at the last minute. Instead yesterday’s Plan B ended up being a 320 mile day trip Add me as another one to say don’t trust anything the dealer states; _maybe_ if they’ll put it in writing on their letterhead. The biggest salesman at a dealership is the service writer. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/99 "2024-11-10T02:13:02Z")
And a possible last update for the thread. As you may have seen, Colorado got an unseasonably early, heavy snowstorm that got us around a foot of snow over the last 2-3 days. So the Rav4 Prime got to go out on snowy, slushy roads. The smart Traction control worked very well, moving power from the electric and ICE sources around, the anti-lock breaks worked well, and the traction for the steep uphill sections around the house were no problem at all. So, the AWD portion of the thread was well satisfied. Oh, and about the PHEV part? Over two months owned, still on first tank of gas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/100 "2024-11-10T03:05:19Z")
Start buying ethanol free gas…or, burn through that gas a little faster. I’ve heard that ethanol gas has a three month shelf life before it starts fucking shit up. All my motos and small gas engine devices get ethanol free. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126/101 "2024-11-10T03:24:06Z")
That’s the plan. We just went through 1/3 of a tank on a round trip to Denver and another such in 3 days. We were at about 3/4 of a tank, so a tiny bit more and it should be good. And going forward we’ll be keeping it around 1/3 to 1/2 full max unless taking planned trips. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-ev-hybrid-plans-awd-edition/988126.md?page=6)