# Future of guns and mass killings in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411 "2015-10-03T21:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DtypeJag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@DtypeJag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DtypeJag)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/201 "2015-10-22T19:05:27Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > It’s more of an “I’m not a statistician but that’s what the [studies](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/us/25shooters.html) seem to be [saying](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/04/report-mass-public-shootings-rise/31071301/)” sort of thing. Critique away, I didn’t realize “mass shootings are getting more common” was a contested position. I think this discussion of firearm deaths can get bogged down in talking about mass shootings. They account for a mere blip in the # of deaths from firearms every year but receive 90% of the attention. The real problem is firearm deaths from all causes including suicides, homicides and accidents. All of these are far higher/capita than in other civilized countries. It is hard to imagine that all of these would not be decreased by a decreased access to guns. Somewhere around half of these deaths are suicides. My 1st reaction is probably how most people would react and say that if I’m going to kill myself and don’t have a gun I’ll find some other way. A moments thought about method makes it apparent this is not as easy as one would think. Without going into all that here, psychiatrists will tell you that thoughts of suicide is usually a momentary thing - a low for bipolars for instance. If a loaded gun is not immediately available they frequently don’t go through with it. As for homicides and mass shootings, every other country has its proportional share of scofflaws and assorted lunatics yet only a fraction of the gun deaths from violence. Accidental deaths are very common and we all have seen the repeated news of an 8 yr old shooting his 4 yr old sister with his fathers loaded pistol. What good is a gun unless its loaded? - says the father. I don’t know any statistics on this but I’d be willing to bet my last dollar its much higher here than in any other western country. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/202 "2015-10-22T19:49:47Z")
> [@DtypeJag](#): > > Accidental deaths are very common and we all have seen the repeated news of an 8 yr old shooting his 4 yr old sister with his fathers loaded pistol. What good is a gun unless its loaded? - says the father. I don’t know any statistics on this but I’d be willing to bet my last dollar its much higher here than in any other western country. Is Mexico a western country?[If it is can I have your last dollar?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) > [@](#): > > The real problem is firearm deaths from all causes including suicides, homicides and accidents. > > … > > Somewhere around half of these deaths are suicides. Without looking it up, how many deaths per year in the US do you think there are due to firearms from the causes you list? You are wrong on the proportion that is suicide. ---
**Author:** ![DtypeJag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@DtypeJag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DtypeJag)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/203 "2015-10-22T21:40:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Is Mexico a western country?[If it is can I have your last dollar?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) > Without looking it up, how many deaths per year in the US do you think there are due to firearms from the causes you list? You are wrong on the proportion that is suicide. Quite right on the first point. I should have said civilized western country. On the second there are roughly 25k /yr ± 15 or 20% total. Roughly half or a little more are suicides most of the rest are homicides. As I stated I don’t know # accidentals. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/204 "2015-10-22T22:24:49Z")
> [@DtypeJag](#): > > On the second there are roughly 25k /yr ± 15 or 20% total. Roughly half or a little more are suicides most of the rest are homicides. As I stated I don’t know # accidentals. We can quibble if Mexico is considered ‘civilized’ but nah. In any case, there are approximately 30-35K firearm deaths per year. Approximately 2/3 are suicides and less than one thousand are accidentals. Accidental deaths of that magnitude in a country of 300+ million people and as many firearms, and 80+ million gun owners, is hardly what I would consider “very common”. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/205 "2015-10-22T22:50:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In any case, there are approximately 30-35K firearm deaths per year. Approximately 2/3 are suicides and less than one thousand are accidentals. Accidental deaths of that magnitude in a country of 300+ million people and as many firearms, and 80+ million gun owners, is hardly what I would consider “very common”. But even if you take gun suicides out of the equation (and you’d have to do the same for all other countries too) you’d still have a gun death rate that is orders of magnitude higher than the countries you should be comparing yourself to. So, you seem to be tacitly agreeing that if you have a lot of guns then you are bound to have a high amount of deaths from guns? And yet I thought the pro-gun argument was that guns made things safer? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/206 "2015-10-22T22:55:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But even if you take gun suicides out of the equation (and you’d have to do the same for all other countries too) you’d still have a gun death rate that is orders of magnitude higher than the countries you should be comparing yourself to. > So, you seem to be tacitly agreeing that if you have a lot of guns then you are bound to have a high amount of deaths from guns? > And yet I thought the pro-gun argument was that guns made things safer? My post in this context was correcting a factual error, no more, no less. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/207 "2015-10-23T15:33:46Z")
As per usual, I will point out that being shot, even if you don’t die, is still a bad thing. The focus on death to the exclusion of injury is a pernicious problem. Approximately 100,000 Americans are shot each year. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/208 "2015-10-23T16:07:56Z")
Of course then you have to count all the instances where other things that can cause death only caused injury. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/209 "2015-10-23T16:21:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My post in this context was correcting a factual error, no more, no less. Well, I think we’re probably all relived to learn you weren’t aiming for coherence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/210 "2015-10-28T18:12:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > 4.7 total homicides per 100K in the US from all causes, 1.6 in Canada. Also, 1.1 in Australia, 1.0 in the UK. Numbers from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), [referenced here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate). Our homicide rate is undoubtedly higher than other industrialized nations. If you eliminated all the murders by firearm in America our murder rate would STILL be higher than the murder rate in almost every other wealthy industrialized country. So I’m not sure that you can say “gee, but for guns, our murder rate would look like Sweden” > [@](#): > > As for suicides, I’m just doing a quick edit here and am not going to go looking up all the papers, but the fact is that gun-enabled suicides are almost always lethal. Other kinds are often not, and are less amenable to impulse. Guns, they kill real good. That’s what they’re designed to do, and they do it. Unlike murders, American suicide rates are dead fucking average for wealthy industrialized nations (actually its a little on the low side). So if guns are such a uniquely powerful facilitator of suicides then why is the suicide rate so low? I mean we have more guns per capita than just about any other country in the world. > [@](#): > > No, there’s no problem here, nothing to see, carry on. Of course there is a problem but the problem is mostly a problem of guns in the hands of criminals and the solution the gun control side proposes is to eliminate guns from the hands of law abiding citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/211 "2015-10-28T18:20:11Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Really? I heard there was a guy up in Portland that had a gun, too. > > How many of the victims were armed? > > It’s a sad state of affairs when we have a heroic ex-soldier reduced to bum rushing the murderer, unarmed. Wait. Are you trying to say that if that veteran was armed he would have been able to stop the shooter just as effectively and with less risk than bum-rushing a crazy guy with a gun? I’d need some scientific studies to back that up. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/212 "2015-10-28T18:25:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No…just no. > > The US has 4.7 homicides per 100,000 people while Japan and South Korea have just 0.3 and 0.9 respectably. > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_intentional\_homicide\_rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) > > Obviously, they have much higher suicide rates but I think anyone reasonably familiar with those countries would agree that has more to do with cultural attitudes towards suicide. whoosh ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/213 "2015-10-28T18:29:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’d much rather live in a country where people are killing themselves rather than trying to kill _me_. whoosh. Since this is the second whoosh… the poster is criticizing the use of “gun deaths” to conflate homicides and suicides. Suicides are clearly not a clear problem in America that needs to be addressed any more than it needs to be addressed in other countries. Homicides are a problem that we seem to have relative to other wealthy industrialized nations but it is also clear that our murder rate would be abnormally high even if all the gun homicides disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/214 "2015-10-28T18:30:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I don’t think anyone is aiming for a total gun ban. Oh really? Have you met hentor? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/215 "2015-10-28T18:35:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > remove black on black violence and you will see a much different set of numbers. I think you are mischaracterizing the problem. Its either gang violence or criminal on criminal violence. Blacks are just over-represented in the gang community and the criminal community, mostly for socioeconomic reasons. Wealthy blacks do not seem to commit murder at higher rates than their wealthy white peers. Poor blacks do and the difference there can be explained by differences in gang participation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/216 "2015-10-28T20:24:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is this an accusation of lying? How is this any different han your saying “bullshit” later on? > [@](#): > > Bullshit. A vast majority of studies find that access to firearms increases the risk of suicide. Confusing correlation and causation again, are we? I suppose you are also going to tell me that trains, rope and tall buildings increase the risk of suicide in East Asia? The fact of the matter is that American suicide rate are dead fucking average for industrialized nations. If guns increased the risk of suicide you would think that our suicide rate would be significantly higher than everyone else considering how many fucking guns we have. Consider the other two wealthy industrialized nations with lots of access to guns: Israel and Switzerland. Why are the suicide rates there also fairly mediocre (Its actually pretty low in Israel). Why is the high suicide rate in East Asia attributable to “culture unique to the country” but the mediocre suicide rates in America is because of guns? Suicides might be impulsive but getting a gun is not, its much easier to jump off a roof. With all that said, my intuition tells me that some suicides might be prevented if guns were illegal. That there are at least SOME cases where someone wants to take their own life enough to reach into desk and pull out a gun but aren’t sufficiently motivated enough to go to the roof and jump off a building. I’m not convinced that this is a very large portion of suicides, certainly not enough for me to believe that availability of guns is a driving factor in our mediocre suicide rate. Why is correlation between gun ownership in places like Wyoming and suicide relevant but the correlation between gun ownership and suicides in Korea irrelevant? Why doesn’t it matter that Wyoming is a very white state when white males account for 70% of all suicides? Gender seems to be a much bigger indicator of suicide risk than either gun ownership or race. > [@](#): > > I could do like you and just throw fact free assertions. Why don’t you be clear and say how the stats are being spun. I know reason would get in the way of your spittle-flecked little rant, but it would make your offering a bit more useful to others.The alcohol-swimming pools-hammers-buckets argument is played out and stupid. Adding diet in is something new, but it doesn’t help the argument.I’m not the one who suggested we should discount black-on-black shootings. Did you somehow miss that. Perhaps in your little rage, your eyes glazed over it. Calm down and go back and read more slowly and you’ll see. You know this isn’t the pit right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/217 "2015-10-28T20:33:25Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Actually I would be willing to bet that this is a better argument for more restrictions on guns - not less. > > Intuitively - (yeah, we know where that gets us ok) - as a “criminal” who is wanting to do something bad to an isolated house, would you go armed or unarmed? > > Who do you think is going to come off best - the armed person who is prepared and has the element of surprise, or the armed person that doesn’t know what is happening? > > I’d be willing to bet the farm, plus my left testical, that guns have facilitated far more muggings, rapes and home robberies than have been stopped by the armed innocent victims. And if you could pass a law that would make the criminals give up their guns, then you would have a point but they won’t. Any law you pass will only affect those who are inclined to obey the law. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/218 "2015-10-28T20:38:41Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Maybe we could start with some sort of age limit and number/type of guns you are allowed to own. Well, we have an age limit on purchasing guns but there is no age limit on possessing a gun. > [@](#): > > Should a 26 year old man be allowed to own 17 guns? Why not? How does the 17th gun make him any more dangerous than the 16th gun? > [@](#): > > Should just anyone be allowed to own an assault rifle? Do you mean an assault weapon or an assault rifle? An assault rifle is a machine gun and they are very tightly regulated and a decent one can cost more than a small car. An assault weapon is a term created by congress that means a semi-automatic rifle that has features like an adjustable stock (that’s the thing you put against your shoulder, different people prefer different lengths), a pistol grip (this is largely an ergonomic improvement), or any one of a number of other mostly cosmetic enhancements. > [@](#): > > We put age limits on other things, why not guns? They sorta do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/219 "2015-10-28T20:49:48Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I just noticed something. You often hear conservatives point to the high incidence of inner city black on black violence, and you often hear them proclaim that the solution to the gun problem is to arm the victims, and yet you never hear them advocate the obvious conclusion of these claims which is to arm more inner city blacks. I wonder why this is? There are active project to arm women and people in high crime neighborhoods. I don’t know if this is a good idea or not but some people who think “more guns” = “safer neighborhoods” are doing something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411/220 "2015-10-28T21:11:05Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I think as far as pro-gun arguments go this is the best one you can make. Like access to alcohol or to tobacco access to firearms is something you \*want \*to have, and you are willing to pay a price for it. A free nation should be allowed to make that choice. I am not an American. My nation has made a different choice and - fortunately for me - it happens to be a choice that I agree with. For my tastes the price America is paying for the right to bear arms is too high. But this is really for the Americans to decide, and if the majority feel that the price is not too high, I have no issues with that. > What I do have issues with - at least as far as debates on the topic go - is the claim that _there is no price to pay_. That there even is a net benefit. That line of argument (which you hear often) is never brought forward when it comes to alcohol or tobacco. It seems to be exclusive to gun rights and it is usually backed up with either weak evidence or not backed up at all. You make it sound like there are no benefits of gun ownership other than recreational enjoyment. See LA riots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-guns-and-mass-killings-in-the-us/733411.md?page=12)