# Future of Social Liberalism In Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-social-liberalism-in-europe/598979 "2011-10-08T06:23:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-social-liberalism-in-europe/598979/21 "2011-10-09T23:48:50Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, Mr. Inbred, apart from a long list of insults, you provide no information or anything whatsoever refuting me. You pretend I cannot name the AKp because I did not. You libelled me multiple times, and generally followed up by using the name of a prominent American political party as an insult, which leads me to suspect you’re simply being aggro just because. > Point the First: Historically, a number of parties have come to power democratically… and then used that power to immediately undermine democracy. The current Turkish government has attacked a free press, possibly faked evidence to undercut the military (a bastion of secularism), and is openly Islamist. > > Point the Second: Turkey, despite having no pervious interest, has suddenly become unusually hostile to Israel, including supporting the fake “protesters” who were moving armaments into Gaza. > > [IDF Seizes Boat Carrying Weapons From Turkey to Gaza - Haaretz Com - Haaretz.com](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-seizes-boat-carrying-weapons-from-turkey-to-gaza-1.349335) > > Point the third: As mentioned, Turkey’s government is using dubious evidence to charge numerous military officers, which is what led to a resignation of top generals. This post sums up the issues, though naturally it’s been a while. > > [http://turkeyetc.blogspot.com/2010/12/sledgehammer-anachronisms.html](http://turkeyetc.blogspot.com/2010/12/sledgehammer-anachronisms.html) > > Since you accepted (and then naturally ignored) the fact that the Turkish government has been leaning with a heavy hand on the media, I will pass that buy and not hammer you with it. > > I suppose I probably shoudl avoid all news media and making up my own mind about things. It would be much easier to simply ignore all the issues. Or even better, I could watch My Little Pony, since that seems to be where you get _your_ information, even if you get your attitude from reading The Incredible Hulk. I really couldn’t care less if you don’t like my attitude. I also did not insult you a single time. You just don’t like the fact that the point-of-view you support is entirely garbage. Do you dispute a single fact I stated about the AKP’s activities with NATO, the EU, and in the Middle East? I certainly did not dispute anything you said that was true. Please say something specific. It’s a simple courtesy. I was certainly very specific about my criticisms of your post. At least I know you don’t like my attitude. I also made it clear that among the poorly analyzed data you were sharing, some of it was true. Why can’t you just admit that everything I’ve said is the exact truth. Where is Turkey veering away from NATO? Like your blog, it represents a legit and balanced viewpoint. Too bad you were completely unable to express that legit viewpoint in favor of a doomsday viewpoint. Your statements in your previous post, except for the thing concerning the media, do not represent a legit viewpoint. They represent the kinds of opinion pieces I’ve been reading since the AK party first won an election. Yet they have never proven true - which is a big problem because it’s been going on for 8 years. In that same time Turkey has been on a consistent trajectory of economic and democratic improvement with the exception of problems in the media. Did you know that the first bachelor’s program in Kurdish has started in Turkey? Things are getting better but it’s easier to focus on the single negative. Things are more nuanced. Your Haaretz link? Jesus I’d be ashamed to post such a thing. I am assuming that you have it confused with another link because it doesn’t say what you think it says. In fact here’s a quote from it: > [@](#): > > Turkey is not responsible for the seized ship “in any aspect,” the IDF said. Now I wonder who the IDF think they are to say such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-social-liberalism-in-europe/598979/22 "2011-10-10T00:19:32Z")
Also I didn’t ignore the media problem. I didn’t think that you’d consider it something new or different about the AK party. Turkey’s biggest problems are how the government treats the press and how civil society treats minority opposition. It’s not a specific problem to the AK party. CHP did it too. With any luck and EU pressure the constitutional revisions will address this issue. I don’t have my hopes up, but it would just be icing on the cake if other promises that have floated around are kept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/future-of-social-liberalism-in-europe/598979.md?page=1)