# G.K. Chesterton, early 20th cen. England, and the N-word **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720 "2017-02-13T00:27:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/41 "2017-02-13T18:47:17Z")
I was scanning a circa 1990 Halliwells Film Guide and I came upon the entry for “Son of Dr Jeckyll” of which the description ended “…was the nigger in the woodpile.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/42 "2017-02-13T18:49:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, yes. > > In the interests of full disclosure, I suspected that **griffin1977** had gotten the movie wrong; and that posting my question to you, _right under his post,_ would bring that to his attention – only without having to _say_ “uh, hey, you’re wrong,” and without having to risk him replying “uh, no, they did it in both movies.” > > Seemed like a casual and low-key win-win, really – but it’s out the window now. 😉 Nitpicking is a way of life in GQ. There’s nothing wrong with correcting someone who got a detail wrong. And beating around the bush, just like in real life, is more likely to cause confusion that resolve it.😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/43 "2017-02-13T19:15:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Nitpicking is a way of life in GQ. There’s nothing wrong with correcting someone who got a detail wrong. And beating around the bush, just like in real life, is more likely to cause confusion that resolve it.😉 Yeah, but, again, proving a negative is _hard,_ y’know? I wanted to be crazy polite instead of saying “you’re wrong,” and I also wanted to avoid the possibility of him coolly noting that, “no, they did it in both; _you’re_ wrong, Wrongy McWrongerson.” ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/44 "2017-02-13T19:17:05Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It’s not casual racism if the word isn’t culturally loaded. For instance, if the word “black” is considered a racist slur 50 years down the road, it doesn’t mean that you have been “casually racist” every time you used it yourself. I would say that the way the word was used in many cases it was clearly culturally loaded, e.g. the term “the n\*\*\*\*r in the wood pile” originated as a reference to an escaping slave from the underground railroad in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/45 "2017-02-13T19:55:44Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Just as another data point, I think other related terms (e.g. ‘Nig-nog’) survived even later than the N word in UK parlance. > > In general, there was a prevailing notion that such language was offensive, but in a bawdy/vulgar sense, rather than viciously racist-divisive. I’m not saying that’s right, but I think that’s how it was. I went to school in the UK in the 80s, and the sole black pupil in the school was in my year, and went by the nickname “Nignog”. Makes me cringe to think of it now. I can’t remember what the teacher’s thought of it. He seemed absolutely fine with it at the time, but perhaps he wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/46 "2017-02-13T20:39:15Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The fact that, in 1939, [a certain Agatha Christie novel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Then_There_Were_None#Publication_and_book_title_history) was published with different titles in the US and the UK suggests that the N-word was significantly less offensive in the UK earlier in the 20th century than it was in the US. Christie also has a character casually use the word in the first Poirot novel, as it’s relevant that folks in the house play dress-up games: they have a big chest full of costumes, for evenings when a guy wants to put on a fake beard and swing a prop scimitar around as a Persian Shah with a faceful of burnt cork – _“though 'tis messy getting it off again. Miss Cynthia was a nigger once, and, oh, the trouble she had.”_ I remember reading that, and thinking, _huh, so that’s a thing that happened._ ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/47 "2017-02-13T20:49:04Z")
There were very few black people in England until the 1950s. Most people had never seen one, unless they had travelled abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/48 "2017-02-13T21:28:49Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > There were very few black people in England until the 1950s. Most people had never seen one, unless they had travelled abroad. Or seen any of the large number of visiting American entertainers. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/49 "2017-02-13T21:43:13Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Though I am concerned that based on \*\*Colibri \*\*'s post above that I may have got Dambusters and Battle of Britain confused in my memory … Yes the reference was in the 1955 movie Dambusters. A black lab of that name was in fact the mascot of No. 617 Sdn. So it moves the question of audience sensibility from late 60’s to mid 50’s. And then there’s the separate issue of what besides editing out history you call it when you change actual names and terms to fit later sensibilities. I don’t claim there’s a one size fits all easy answer to that though. Say anyone was interested in a new movie about that raid, then the publicity of the movie would probably revolve around the controversy of the mascot’s name if they didn’t change or omit it, and that’s obviously distorted also. As the thread illustrates, it’s actually pretty hard to gauge accurately exactly what various terms connoted in each time and place. This is true even when fiction set in the past but written recently embraces now highly offensive terms, and where it’s not as tangential as a bomber unit’s mascot’s name. Whose findings or opinions of the commonness or meaning of offensive terms determines the fact? The decisions of current (or recent) fiction writers how to depict the past in such respects tend to seep into our consciousness as ‘historical facts’ I think. Then again as in the thread question, when we look at past fiction it’s harder to know the general mindset of the writer than a modern writer who we assume generally shares our own. ---
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/50 "2017-02-13T22:43:03Z")
You want to see an example of some weird English casual racism? Look up “The Black and White Minstrel Show” on youtube. Men in blackface with white chorus girls. Beautifully sung and they didn't stint the budget, but even given that, as an American, it will leave you absolutely slackjawed in horror, yet it ran for twenty years. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/51 "2017-02-13T23:58:59Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I think the key difference between the UK and the US was that the vast majority of the people in the UK were much more insulated from the realities of both slavery and colonial exploitation: that all happened long ago or at least far away - it hadn’t the same potential to crop up in most people’s lives (even if we are now coming to a belated recognition that it should have done), so the terms didn’t carry the quite same cultural baggage here. One of the key differences between the UK and the US was that the vast majority of people were already classified as lower class, working class, upper working class, lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, etc. “Nigger” isn’t understood to be any more or less offensive than “gardener”: it is a matter of breeding un both cases. This is why “Lady Chatterley’s Lover” is so outrageous. The word “gamekeeper” isn’t understood to be insulting, but she’s sleeping with a … ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/52 "2017-02-14T00:07:04Z")
> [@Marion\_Wormer](#): > > Beautifully sung and they didn’t stint the budget, but even given that, as an American, it will leave you absolutely slackjawed in horror, yet it ran for twenty years. I wonder if they ever sang _Strange Fruit_? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/53 "2017-02-14T02:16:42Z")
except. . . that the word nigger in 19th and earlier 20th century BrE was used to denote someone of an inferior race. so while use of it may not have carried any overt hostility toward the people who were called that, it doesnt get any more racist, by definition, than that. just because someone meant no ill will toward some one they called a nigger, didnt mean they didnt believe that they were their equal. its not casual racism, its institutional racism! mc ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/54 "2017-02-14T02:22:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > except. . . that the word nigger in 19th and earlier 20th century BrE was used to denote someone of an inferior race. so while use of it may not have carried any overt hostility toward the people who were called that, it doesnt get any more racist, by definition, than that. > > just because someone meant no ill will toward some one they called a nigger, didnt mean they didnt believe that they were their equal. > > its not casual racism, its institutional racism! What you’re saying is that, given prevailing British attitudes towards people of other races at the time in question, _any_ word used by British speakers/writers to refer to those people must, necessarily, be racist. Well, yes. But was “nigger” _particularly_ racist? I think it probably was among the stronger words that would have been in common use, and a British person actively wishing to signal racist attitudes might well have chosen this word in preference to others. But it was often used in contexts which the speaker, at any rate, considered neutral or benign, and I don’t think it ever carried the emotional weight that it does in the US, which arises particularly out of the US’s experience of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/55 "2017-02-14T02:28:24Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > except. . . that the word nigger in 19th and earlier 20th century BrE was used to denote someone of an inferior race. It did, but not in any exclusive manner. “Black”, “negro”, “coloured”, and a host more, were exactly as demeaning and loaded. The simple reality was not in the word, it was in the basic belief of little more than white supremacy. “Nigger” became the emblematic word for that in the US, but not elsewhere, not until very recently. Across the rest of the world, where there were no African slaves, exactly the same racial superiority played out, but with different target groups. All the words were equally loaded. What has changed is that “nigger” became a deliberate insult. It is now so loaded with politics, and social ills, that the racial component is diminished. It has more connotation of “slave” than “black”. Which is why there is such a divide between the US and the rest of the world in its use and meaning. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/56 "2017-02-14T04:23:36Z")
but, isnt that splitting hairs. is benevolent racism any less odious than virulent racism? if a united statesian writer today uses the word nigger, theyre going for impact; they know how much baggage that word brings to the sentence. a british writer from before the 1950’s would be more likely to causally toss it in, because everyone knew what it meant, that africans were inferior. no offense intended, thats just how things are. in both examples the word means the same. the word hasnt changed meanings, as the op asked, just more people today find that meaning unacceptable. mc ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/57 "2017-02-14T04:43:09Z")
lets compare it to today’s use of the word cunt in BrE. it is just as big of a sexist slur to the women of england as it is to the women of the US. but british men dont see it that way. they think that if theyre calling their mates cunts its go nothing to do with women so how can women be offended. but by calling a man a cunt you are implicitly calling them a woman, which is a bad thing to call a man as womanliness implies inferiority. they may think its a good hearted, friendly insult among mates. no offense intended. but almost everyone else sees it as an insult to women. so how can a woman not take offense when calling someone a cunt is an insult. just because the white men of old, meant no offense, when they threw the word nigger around like nothing at all, doesnt mean no offense was taken. mc ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/58 "2017-02-14T04:55:47Z")
Yes, but the reason they find it _so_ unacceptable in the US arises out of the historical circumstances and experiences of the US. That doesn’t apply in the same way in other countries; therefore the word does not have the same resonances in other countries that it has in the US. That’s not to say it doesn’t have negative resonances or is not regarded as unacceptable; but this doesn’t apply with the same force as it does in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/59 "2017-02-14T04:57:35Z")
I’ve never heard womanliness implied, and I’ve read, heard, used the word most of my life; and been called a cunt: what does it mean when they call each other a prick ? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720/60 "2017-02-14T05:03:36Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > but, isnt that splitting hairs. is benevolent racism any less odious than virulent racism? I guess it depends upon whether you are stuck in a lower socio-economic tier or living in fear of being lynched - possibly by the local police, or being carted off in trains by the local officials never to return. There is nothing benevolent about racism. But there is a big difference between any society viewing outsiders as inferior, and a society where peoples of another race are subject to active attack. There is a certain luxury is debating the level of odiousness that comes from detachment from the reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/g-k-chesterton-early-20th-cen-england-and-the-n-word/779720.md?page=4)