# GA BoE: Gay students need parents' permission **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167 "2005-03-18T18:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/21 "2005-03-19T12:05:06Z")
Thank you, **MidnightRadio**. I was lazy and tried to do it just by copying the address bar. Now if you just fix my spelling and grammar also… **Sample\_the\_Dog** ’s thread title was a little dramatic (nobody’s requiring permission just to be gay) but not out of line. The ability to join these groups, at an age when most kids are beginning to figure out how sex is going to be a part of their lives, is certainly important (at that age, after surveying the available evidence, I was concluding “not at all,” but I digress). And as I pointed out, those students who can’t expect parental support for joining are for that very reason those who might need such groups the most – a nasty Catch-22. This dilemma may make these groups an exception to my general rule that of course parents should know and approve of their kids’ extracurricular school-based activities. I admit that parents will not always make these decisions in the best interest of their children. I knew talented musicians whose parents wouldn’t let them join the orchestra, gifted chess players, actors and, yes, athletes as well who were not permitted to explore and develop their intellectual, physical and/or artistic abilities, which are surely, along with sexual identity and sexual politics, also important parts of the self. Without usurping parents’ responsibility for and control over the growth of their children, I think we have to accept this. Work against it, sure; ameliorate it when we can and be sad when we can’t, but accept that parents will often make bad decisions detrimental to their children. I think I made one of those yesterday. I’ll concede that GSA groups are unique if only because sex often is an order of magnitude harder for parents and children to discuss with each other, and because bigotry against gays is more deeply-rooted and dangerous than that against, say, clarinetists, but I don’t know how to treat them differently in a legal way that makes everybody happy. So I’m left with my half-baked idea about generic permission slips, the moral and intellectual equivalent of “don’t ask, don’t tell.” Surely someone can do better. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/22 "2005-03-19T14:55:15Z")
For those who don’t want to register for the Atlanta Gerbil Constipation, here’s [a link](http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/georgia/news-article.aspx?storyid=34144) to the story on a website for two TV stations: > [@](#): > > A proposal aimed at gay clubs would require high school students to get written parental permission before taking part in extracurricular activities. > > The rule before the state Board of Education was proposed by schools Superintendent Kathy Cox. It does NOT speficially target clubs for homosexual students. But it was requested by lawmakers who have tried for several years to squelch gay student support groups in Georgia high schools. > > If approved, the rule would require any student who wants to take part in any school-related club or after-school activity to get written permission from parents. Atlanta gay weekly newspaper Southern Voice ran [this](http://www.sovo.com/2005/2-25/news/localnews/house.cfm) in a summary of state legislative news in February (scroll down to second subhead): > [@](#): > > Gay activists are also monitoring a Senate bill that would require parents to provide written permission for their children to participate in extracurricular activities and clubs in schools. > > “This would be devastating to the kids that want to participate in gay-straight alliances at their schools, especially the kids who aren’t out yet and would have to come out to their parents in order to get permission to join,” said Chuck Bowen, executive director of the statewide gay rights group Georgia Equality. > > The measure, Senate Bill 149 sponsored by state Sen. Nancy Schaefer (R-Turnersville), was scheduled for consideration by the Senate Education & Youth Committee Tuesday, but was postponed until March 1 at 3 p.m. > > “It’s just a real common sense kind of bill to let parents know what kind of clubs are available to their children and what the clubs are all about — their mission, their activities — and then the parents can give permission to participate or opt them out,” Schaefer said. > > The conservative lawmaker said the policy could potentially force gay youth to come out to their parents. > > “Their parents would be informed about what all the clubs and organizations are anyway, so I guess they would know,” Schaefer said. > > But several gay and lesbian teens who were at the state Capitol on Tuesday to lobby against the proposal said gaining parental consent could be difficult for some students. > > “We have students who often do not feel safe at home — do not have anyone to talk to at home, do not have anyone to share things with — and our [gay-straight student alliance] provides that,” said Jonathan Gould, president of the gay-straight alliance at Druid Hills High School. And [this article from this week’s Southern Voice](http://www.sovo.com/2005/3-18/news/localnews/student.cfm) indicates the sort of problems students face, and notes in passing our old friend Phred showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/23 "2005-03-19T15:04:10Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > As soon as the people doing it know that they can’t count on the public to support them. I agree, because at that point it probably means that homosexual students have finally found a good measure of acceptance and won’t need those kinds of groups any longer. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/24 "2005-03-19T15:08:41Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > What I object to is jumping to the conclusion that student groups which center on gay interests should or would become obsolete if gays were granted full social equality. > > There’s no need to assume that gay students should only want to meet and form clubs because they’re fighting oppression. I can scarcely imagine any school that would have a club devoted to heterosexual interest alone. So if homosexuals have full acceptance why the need for gay and lesbian clubs? Marc ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/25 "2005-03-19T15:12:32Z")
Support? I mean, even if we gain complete equality, we’ll still be a minority. Culture? We have one, you know. Some people are even interested in it. Socializing? It’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/26 "2005-03-19T15:50:44Z")
So, we have kids, some of whom are probably not out to their parents - perhaps because of fear - who now require parental consent to join a group that will provide them support? ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/27 "2005-03-19T15:55:59Z")
I second what **Matt** said. I didn’t really appreciate the purpose of GLBT organizations until I realized I’m queer. Particularly when I first came out, I appreciated the chance to socialize with other GLBT people. Plus, it’s fun to see how many different ways the word “out” can be incorporated into an organization name. UT-Austin hosts OutLaw, OutSource, HangOut, and StandOut. I’m tempted to start an organization for GLBT recluses called KeepOut, but the hard part is finding two other charter members. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/28 "2005-03-19T15:58:51Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Culture? We have one, you know. Some people are even interested in it. If you have a ‘culture’, why can’t people talk about ‘the gay lifestyle’? I thought the whole point is that gay people are _people_ who happen to be gay. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/29 "2005-03-19T16:08:51Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I can scarcely imagine any school that would have a club devoted to heterosexual interest alone. So if homosexuals have full acceptance why the need for gay and lesbian clubs? Because they don’t have full acceptance. And if you think that’s not a critical issue in teens’ lives, well, I have to say my experience is otherwise, and I think research will bear this out. And it’s makes no sense either, as I’ve heard some argue, that since ideally all students should be treated equally, then we ought to act as if that were already true. Also, students should be free to organize groups on whatever interest or commonality they like – with obviously beyond-the-pale subjects, such as a Columbine Killers Fan Club, excepted. Btw, you’ll probably consider this a stretch, but I know of several clubs devoted to heterosexual interests. In my day, they went by various names such as Cotillion or Twig (as in, “As the twig is bent…”) and their purpose was precisely to train adolescent boys and girls in the proper rituals of heterosexual interaction in polite society, even if no one came out and said so. Heterosexual orientation, of course, was such an implicit assumption that it was neither noticed nor commented upon… except by those who were either left out or forced to play a role in order to “pass”. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/30 "2005-03-19T16:11:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you have a ‘culture’, why can’t people talk about ‘the gay lifestyle’? > > I thought the whole point is that gay people are _people_ who happen to be gay. Right? I am Irish. I have Irish culture. I don’t know what an Irish “lifestyle” is supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/31 "2005-03-19T16:21:14Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I am Irish. I have Irish culture. I don’t know what an Irish “lifestyle” is supposed to be. You’re probably out there trying to get young people to become Irish and pushing the Irish agenda. Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/32 "2005-03-19T16:52:31Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > You’re probably out there trying to get young people to become Irish and pushing the Irish agenda. > > Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😛 Hmm. If you recruit someone into becoming Irish, do you get Guinness instead of a toaster? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/33 "2005-03-19T17:27:03Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I am Irish. I have Irish culture. I don’t know what an Irish “lifestyle” is supposed to be. The difference is that there is/was a cultural group (and groups) which have lineage in Ireland. To point out Irish culture is to talk about the aggregate actions of communities and individuals in Ireland down through the centuries. Also, if we were going to talk about Irish culture, then it would be fair to point out that it is a pub culture, that a certain religion has many adherents, that certain dishes are generally served/prefered… all of which entails (in general) a certain lifestyle. (This of course gets messy when we focus on individuals. But I’d rather not turn this into a rant on group-think unless I have to :D) However, talking about gay culture assumes facts not in evidence. Do gay people, honestly, have anything in common other than enjoying sexual relations with those with the same set of chromosomes? Well, that and being the focus of idiotic prejudice? While you can speak to Irish traditions, are there really any gay traditions? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/34 "2005-03-19T17:32:51Z")
As I’ve mentioned before, the problem with the phrase “the gay lifestyle” is not with the last word but with the first. It categorizes all persons with same-sex attraction into one stereotype, which is then generally negatively painted with the characteristics least socially acceptable to the audience to whom the term is used. Does “the Irish lifestyle” include an elderly Lesbian teetotaler from County Wicklow with a fondness for American baseball and Tibetan cooking? > [@](#): > > While you can speak to Irish traditions, are there really any gay traditions? Well, I suspect that there are, but explaining them would definitely be TMI! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/35 "2005-03-19T17:37:57Z")
Hah! Points go to **Poly** ~bows humbly~ ---
**Author:** ![puppymeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppymeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppymeister)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/36 "2005-03-20T00:56:29Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I’d rather look forward to the day where LGBT people don’t feel they need a group solely because of their status. Couldn’t you say that about any group, though? It’s not like when our GSA was active we got together and moped about going, “oh, woe is us, we’re gay and opressed!” Things like this are exactly why we have the groups, I think. Community, like-minded people, less chance to get stabbed in the back, etc, etc. It’s really not a status thing for a lot of us, honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/37 "2005-03-20T01:37:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > However, talking about gay culture assumes facts not in evidence. > > Do gay people, honestly, have anything in common other than enjoying sexual relations with those with the same set of chromosomes? Well, that and being the focus of idiotic prejudice? > > While you can speak to Irish traditions, are there really any gay traditions? Perhaps not in evidence if you’re not looking for them. There is a queer culture. A good many queer people choose not to participate in it, but that goes for members who could, nominally, have membership in any other culture, but choose not to. We have a history (whatever David Halperin might think). And many queer people seek out this history when they come back. It’s a series of texts and poems and novels – and increasingly actual historical research by people John Boswell and Byrne Fone. And we have a literature. We can start at Sappho, and go through _The Symposium_, then maybe some other Greek poetry and the _Satyricon_, with a brief stop through _The Nicomachean Ethics_ (just as an antidote to the claim that the idea of being “born gay” is entirely recent), then maybe _The Three Erotes_, the poetry of Hilary the Englishman, plenty of stuff in the Renaissance (including some of Shakespeare’s sonnets, especially number 20), Jeremy Bentham’s _Offences Against One’s Self_, maybe even the Earl of Rochester. Once you hit the 19th and 20th Century, the work multiplies. I’d recommend Herman Melville’s _Billy Budd_, Radcliffe Hall’s _Well of Loneliness_, Forester’s _Maurice_ and James Baldwin’s _Giovanni’s Room_. After that, there are too many to count. In Canada, the first mention of queerness in a novel is homophobic (_The Man from Glengarry_, 1901), the first positive portrayal I’ve found is in Margaret Atwood’s _Handmaid’s Tale_, and the first novel by a queer person, about queer people I’ve found is _Le Coeur Découvert_ by Michel Tremblay. There are traditions. There is the drag show and camp in general. The butch/femme thing could be considered a tradition as well. There are numerous traditions built around the need for secrecy, such as “Queen’s Circles” (small, invitation-only groups of queer people) and such. There were dozens of traditions built around mutual recognition – the handkerchief code was part of that. Quentin Crisp once talked about a sort of formal ceremony that joined lovers in the communities he frequented, many years ago. Wherever people share something in common, different from those elsewhere, cultures are born. They needn’t always be a matter of proximity of tenuous connections of blood. And if queer culture has less of a participation rate among queers themselves now, there are reasons for that. The first is that traditions – no matter how interesting, no matter how beautiful, no matter how much they add to the richness of human culture in general – are reduced to window-dressing in a postmodern age. That, plus we lost most of a generation of elders to AIDS, and with them the traditions to be passed down ☹ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/38 "2005-03-20T01:40:01Z")
I’ll address this later, I promise. For now I’ll simply say that Melville may, or may not, have been gay. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/39 "2005-03-20T01:49:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’ll address this later, I promise. > For now I’ll simply say that Melville may, or may not, have been gay. That I fully realize – I simply included _Billy Budd_ because it was one of the few pieces of the period that could actually be read as sympathetic. Queer culture is unusual among cultures, perhaps, because not everyone who participates is queer – straight fag hags, for example, are very much a part of the culture. Then again, I doubt everyone watching – or even in – a St. Patrick’s Day parade is Irish. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/40 "2005-03-20T03:21:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you have a ‘culture’, why can’t people talk about ‘the gay lifestyle’? > > I thought the whole point is that gay people are _people_ who happen to be gay. Right? > > Do gay people, honestly, have anything in common other than enjoying sexual relations with those with the same set of chromosomes? Well, that and being the focus of idiotic prejudice? > > While you can speak to Irish traditions, are there really any gay traditions? Well, **Hamish** dealt with this ably. (To his, I would only add that there are Queer _cultures_ – different larger cultural groups throughout the world have their own cultural associations with and constructions of queer people.) Basically what I usually say about this is that 1) Queer culture is no fuzzier than national culture, except insofar as we are a diaspora – the culture is associated with an accident of birth, but we acquire it through our education; 2) likewise, not all Canadians (indeed, probably a minority) have read Atwood, but that certainly doesn’t mean that Atwood isn’t Canadian culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167.md?page=3)