# GA BoE: Gay students need parents' permission **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167 "2005-03-18T18:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/81 "2005-03-24T20:34:40Z")
\ Just how would this process work? Would parents have to sign a slip allowing their child to participate in school clubs? Would this be a specific slip for each club, or a general permission slip? How would teachers be able to verify that this was actually the parents’ signature, as opposed to one forged by the student? That happens pretty regularily with absence excuses, etc., for example. Or is that the extra paperwork burden on teachers’ that opponents have been talking about? Seems like a pretty unworkable process, generally. But it might work as an intimidation tactic to keep kids from participating in such clubs. And I can see a right wing principal making a special effort for this club; calling each parent and asking if they really signed the permission slip. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/82 "2005-03-24T21:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > But the average folks on the street will not differentiate between gay culture and a ‘gay lifestyle.’ . Well, I don’t like to do violence to my culture in order to pacify others; for one thing, it rarely works. It’s like when people say that we should do away with Pride, because it “misrepresents” queer life; the answer is that it only does so if one takes a carnival to be representative of the other 364 days of the year, which is the act of a facile intellect. The response to that is to educate others, not to give up our own way of life and understanding. > [@](#): > > And yet, in this very thread, people have put forth artists creations as examples of gay culture. Writing books is something people do, yes? And my point is that even if we as academics differentiate between culture and lifestyle, many people will not. Well, writing books is only one way of interacting with culture. Reading books is another. Knowing that someone wrote a book is a third. To know that Atwood wrote _Alias Grace_ is a way of interacting with Canadian culture. > [@](#): > > If there is only one culture, then NAMBLA does become part of it. If there are many cultures, NAMBLA does not. But what would it necessarily mean for NAMBLA to be a part of a Queer culture? Does it mean that queer people approve of NAMBLA? Surely not. You needn’t approve of things of which you have cultural knowledge. > [@](#): > > Which is why, to a degree, it is a useful linguistic fiction. I won’t deny it is useful, but it’s still a fiction. It’s a way of ‘massaging out’ the irregularities of our real world experience in an attempt to provide a grid to view Reality through. There’s no need to get all deconstructionist; just because everyone participates in something differently doesn’t make that thing unreal. Canadian culture isn’t unreal just because it’s different for everyone. > [@](#): > > If I was gay I could kiss you! You still can. I’ve kissed a few straight boys in my time 🙂 > [@](#): > > I don’t see it as ludicrous at all. As a matter of fact, I see that exact thing happening with the perception of American culture all over the world. “You’re American, so you must be a loudmouthed arrogant jerk!” Instead of “You’re a person and an individual who happens to be American.” Um, that’s an example of _mis_interpretation of American culture as being something that preempts and defines someone, which is exactly what I’m critiquing (as well as the questionable assumption that American culture involves a commitment to loudmouthed arrogant jerkiness). An enlightened point of view finds a middle ground between everyone being the same and everyone having no common knowledge whatsoever other than the most basic literal fact of their nationality, or their sexual orientation. > [@](#): > > Which is why culture is a useful gloss, but not a 1:1 correlation with Reality. Nothing ever is, but one does the best one can. > [@](#): > > Just a tangent, but are straight folk allowed to use the word ‘queer’? I’d always thought it was a slur and couldn’t be used by straight folk. Much like “Niggah” among the african american community and “fag” in the NYC gay scene. It depends where you are and how you’re using it. In Montreal, the use of the word queer is almost completely uncontroversial now (in either the alphabet-soup meaning or the cultural meaning). > [@](#): > > So, in regards to this Nebraska teen, he could also choose a different construction of gay identity and a different way of interacting with society, right? As such, this would mark dileniations in western gay culture into further subcultures. Say, for instance, that instead of embracing whatever gay communities there may be, he spends his days in chruch praying to be ‘made normal’, or whatever. There are certainly some gays who view their sexuality as an aberation (due mostly to religion), and they cannot properly be said to be part of the same culture (or subculture) as gays who accept their sexuality. You’ll find that self-hatred and religious tribulation are major cultural referents in Queer culture, since many of us have gone through it. That said, I would rather say he’s not a part of Queer culture as the term is usually used, much as a Korean baby who’s adopted, lives abroad, and hears little about Korea can’t be said to be participating in Korean culture. > [@](#): > > Engage with, yes. Truly be a part of? I’d have to wonder… I’m honestly not sure. Immigrants in America, for example, have a long history of being on the receiving end of bigotry until they assimilate. In Canada, we like to think of Canadian culture as being multicultural (yes, kind of ironic, and also not fully lived up to), so that “fully Canadian” is sort of an odd concept; being an immigrant Canadian is a way of being Canadian. > [@](#): > > But a gay person can choose which school of thought they wish to belong to. I suppose if you do not want to talk about this as subcultures, we can talk about it as various cultures instead? I’d rather think of it as facets or parts of a culture, since the different parts are usually aware of each other and of the whole. I may not agree with Log Cabineers, but I certainly recognize that the LCR is an element of Queer culture. > [@](#): > > Moreoever, only among certain western gay cultures has the wizard of oz earned a place, right? Right. > [@](#): > > Certain some western gay cultures do not even notice things which are central to other western gay cultures. Also true; I doubt one queer in a hundred over here, for example, has heard of Marta Sánchez, despite how well-known she is among Spanish Queers. > [@](#): > > I’ve never once heard it used to indicate that there are many competing and divergent gay cultures, but that there is one gay culture. A singular word is not a plural word. Like I said: “Queer culture” is a mass-noun; it indicates that there is cultural knowledge attached to the fact of queerness. “Culture” is not the same as “a culture.” It doesn’t mean it’ll be the same in every society, or that an identifiable Queer culture is not multifaceted. Just like if you say “human culture” or “popular culture” (or even “culture”), it doesn’t mean it’s the same the world over. Also, as before, even if I refer to a specific Queer culture, it doesn’t mean that all queers in its ambit experience it the same way, or participate in it to the same extent. Not all Western queers are part of Western Queer culture. > [@](#): > > People who are GLBT may not use the terms that way, but a whole heap of other people do. As I say, that is something to be met with education. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/83 "2005-03-24T21:35:10Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Seems like a pretty unworkable process, generally. But it might work as an intimidation tactic to keep kids from participating in such clubs. And I can see a right wing principal making a special effort for this club; calling each parent and asking if they really signed the permission slip. Yeah, I wouldn’t put it past them. Frankly, to me this falls in the same category as those schools that ban all extracurricular activities in order to ban the GSA from meeting. It’s sad, really. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/84 "2005-03-24T21:42:42Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > As I say, that is something to be met with education. This is, I think, the crux of our debate here. I feel that education is good, but it will take too long if not done in conjunction with memetic engineering. You feel (rightly) pride and a sense of community in who you are, and don’t want to give that up or change your memes because of ignorant bigots. I apologize if I was in any way insensitive to your considerations. I’ll ponder this issue some more. I’ve not been involved with queer studies at any university I’ve been at, so this is my first real exposure to this branch of memetics. You’ve at least made me question my stance, but I do not grok in fullness. Waiting is. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/85 "2005-03-24T21:48:16Z")
P.S. I’m sure there are other points on which we diverge, and I’ll think about it some more. I’m going to try not to post because, to be perfectly honest, I’m not quite sure of where I stand right now and I’d rather not have to post a lot and then retract. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/86 "2005-03-24T22:14:49Z")
It’s all good. Feel free to post, start a new thread, or email me if you want to discuss things further or ask any questions. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/87 "2005-03-24T22:30:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’ve at least made me question my stance, but I do not grok in fullness. Waiting is. You have taken right action at cusp. The Old Ones are pleased! 😉 JFTR, as an Anglican I had my own SIASL experience recently, for the same cause as Mike: a bunch of Primates acting viciously towards each other. [wry, sad smiley] ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/88 "2005-03-24T23:19:19Z")
**matt** : thank you very much. I think I’m a bit like Mike though, when I’ve got something that needs to be resolved, I withdraw and meditate on it. (Something’s that’s driven more than one girlfriend nuts.) I may very well take you up on your offer, but I need to sort things out in my head first. Thanks for helping me question my perceptions. **Poly** : I got some bad news today, and you made me smile. Thank you for that. And I’m sorry to hear about your experience… crazy planet of the apes we’re living on. Oh, and, what’s a SIASL? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167/89 "2005-03-25T02:09:38Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain **Poly** : I got some bad news today, and you made me smile. Thank you for that.[/quote] I’m happy that that little witticism was there when you needed it. 🙂 Stuff like that is part of what makes it worthwhile. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And I’m sorry to hear about your experience… crazy planet of the apes we’re living on. Oh, and, what’s a SIASL? SIASL = Stranger In A Strange Land, of course. My experience was being enlightened as to human behavior a bit further by Primates (Archbishops) acting like primates (the monkeys Mike observed). Just a small pun, with a bit of a barb on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-boe-gay-students-need-parents-permission/295167.md?page=4)