# GA special election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 28, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575 "2017-05-28T02:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/321 "2017-06-23T21:11:46Z")
And with Trump voters, promise them that Mexico will pay for the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/322 "2017-06-23T22:13:18Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’ve said for a while that the Dems need a little internal triangulation. To find a message that both unifies and transcends Clintonite corporatism and Sandersian semi-socialism, while not coming across as pandering. When the minorities, the intelligentsia and the white working class vote Dem, they’re unstoppable. Trump won the working white class, and 53 % of the white female vote. The Dems are 0-4 in these special elections, but the real story that under Obama’s Presidency, the Dem’s lost over 1,000 seats at the federal, and state levels. The trend continues, even with an unpopular president, according to the polls. More on these " polls " later. The press, with their poor jouralism that has no proof and nonstop assault, is actually helping Trump, by firing up his base. Don’t believe the polling, they are out of touch with how people are voting and I suspect their sampling is not longer good within the margin o error. Americans have a soft spot for those who are unfairly picked on and people get angry when they are treated unfairly. Trump’s base is already fired up for 2018, a midterm election where Dems historically have low turnouts. If I had to guess 2018 will be a red sea rising in the Senate and beyond. This, however, can change, but for that to happen the Dem’s need new leaders, and the press needs to start acting fairly. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/323 "2017-06-23T22:24:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And with Trump voters, promise them that Mexico will pay for the wall. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/324 "2017-06-23T23:22:30Z")
Silver lining wrote: " Don’t believe the polling, they are out of touch with how people are voting and I suspect their sampling is not longer good within the margin o error." I think people are lying to the pollsters just to fuck with them. (And so they can later derive great satisfaction by complaining that the polls are wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![boyaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9adbd/32.png) [@boyaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boyaren)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/325 "2017-06-25T14:09:21Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The trend continues, even with an unpopular president, according to the polls. Is there any explanation as to why the party of a President, who is so deeply unpopular, according to the polls, keeps winning the elections? 😕 My personal prediction for 2018 is that by that time, Trump (if he’s not impeached by then, of course, which might happen any day now) will be so unpopular (according to the polls and the media) that in addition to the current 32 state legislatures that Republicans control, they’ll add a few more states, thus, being able to call a Constitutional convention, and start passing Constitutional amendments. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/326 "2017-06-25T15:02:30Z")
boyaren wrote: "My personal prediction for 2018 is that by that time, Trump (if he’s not impeached by then, of course, which might happen any day now) will be so unpopular (according to the polls and the media) that in addition to the current 32 state legislatures that Republicans control, they’ll add a few more states, thus, being able to call a Constitutional convention, and start passing Constitutional amendments. " God help us. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/327 "2017-06-25T16:03:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IMO the Democrats have an inherent advantage, in that the plus aspect of their major platform is upfront and immediate and the downside is more complex and long-term. So it’s more appealing to the simple-minded, which is the vast majority of the electorate. > > **Essentially, saying “the government” will give everyone “free stuff”, while pretending that either no one will pay for it or a few zillionaire hedge fund managers will, is always going to be very appealing to a lot of people**. Having to argue things about the long term impact on the economy or moral hazards (murky subjects, at best) is a much tougher sell. That’s why the Republicans have to fall back on their own simplistic and somewhat distorted slogans as well, with uneven results. > > [ETA: that’s not to say anyone who agrees with the Democratic economic platform has to be simple-minded. Far from it. But just that it has a lot of appeal to the simple-minded, whatever its merits.] This advantage is about to end and end fairly soon at that. I predict one, possibly two more Presidential races where this card can be played. By then the Western world will be deep into baby boomer retirement territory. No major political Party comes out of that mess unscathed, or in anything like the shape they are in now. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/328 "2017-06-26T09:06:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, I did not say “like the Republicans do” and I was not suggesting that the Democrats lie\*. Keep in mind that I was offering one suggestion as a counter to what seemed to me like such an esoteric idea that it was completely out of touch with reality. There could very well be other, good strategies, too. The Democrats, on the whole, have a better plan for this country and I’d like to see them win more races. It just seems like they can’t stop themselves from being the party that must solve every social injustice that anyone can possibly dream up instead of focusing most of their energy on the things that matter most to the bulk of the American people. > > \*You probably don’t think I was suggesting Democrats lie, either, but someone could easily read that and think I did. But they **do** focus on things that matter most to the bulk of the American people. It’s just that the Republicans put a lot of effort into the idea that the Democrats don’t, just like they put a lot of effort into pretending that the entire Democratic approach is “giving lazy people free stuff”. The Democrats don’t need to lie per se, but they need to regain control of their own narrative and tell a better story. Because all this "The Democrats would win if only they would have policies that benefited more Americans " is nonsense when one considers that 1) they do, and 2) the Republicans are busy passing policies that are screwing vast numbers of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/329 "2017-06-26T11:52:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IMO the Democrats have an inherent advantage, in that the plus aspect of their major platform is upfront and immediate and the downside is more complex and long-term. So it’s more appealing to the simple-minded, which is the vast majority of the electorate. > > Essentially, saying “the government” will give everyone “free stuff”, while pretending that either no one will pay for it or a few zillionaire hedge fund managers will, is always going to be very appealing to a lot of people. Having to argue things about the long term impact on the economy or moral hazards (murky subjects, at best) is a much tougher sell. That’s why the Republicans have to fall back on their own simplistic and somewhat distorted slogans as well, with uneven results. > > [ETA: that’s not to say anyone who agrees with the Democratic economic platform has to be simple-minded. Far from it. But just that it has a lot of appeal to the simple-minded, whatever its merits.] It used to be that way, but we won that argument way back in 1980 and it’s very difficult for Democrats to implement new programs. Just doing ACA cost them everything and in the end they might not even be able to keep that. Of course, we won it with a simplistic argument of our own: “Government is the problem.”, but I guess simplistic arguments are what it takes to beat other simplistic arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/330 "2017-06-26T12:18:42Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > It needs to be articulated that some of the “free stuff” is paid for through increased revenue. You pay for daycare subsidies from the taxes collected from working mothers. You pay for tuition subsidies from the taxes collected from college graduates who are making more money with degrees than they would without, etc, etc. > > Yeah, it doesn’t always work that way in practice, but the theory doesn’t even get put out there enough. It never works that way ever. It’s not like there’s a special tax on working mothers which pays for child care. Or a special tax on “college graduates who are making more money with degrees than they would without” to pay for tuition subsidies. > [@adaher](#): > > It used to be that way, but we won that argument way back in 1980 and it’s very difficult for Democrats to implement new programs. Just doing ACA cost them everything and in the end they might not even be able to keep that. I disagree. The argument has never been won, and “free stuff” continues to be a big selling point. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/331 "2017-06-26T12:22:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The argument has never been won, and “free stuff” continues to be a big selling point. I live in a state that desperately competes for businesses by offering them massive tax breaks that work as subsidies: “Open your business with us,” they implicitly say, “And we’ll provide all the government services your business needs, and your employees need–water service, police protection, roads, schools for employee children, you name it–and not make you pay for it. Free stuff!” Chances are, you live in a state that does the same thing, or else you don’t live in the US. So yeah, the “free stuff” argument is a cornerstone of Republican governance. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/332 "2017-06-26T12:26:16Z")
I agree that those offers are foolish. I disagree that they have anything to do with Republican governance. Both Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty of that type of thing. Republicans tend to favor low-tax business friendly policies as general principles. But offering negotiated breaks to lure specific big businesses to a state or local area is a bipartisan endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/333 "2017-06-26T13:33:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that those offers are foolish. I disagree that they have anything to do with Republican governance. Both Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty of that type of thing. Pretty much agreed–although Dems seem likelier to put in caveats like “be sure you pay your workers enough money that they’re not on food stamps.” My point was to rebut your implication that it’s only Democrats who offer “free stuff”. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/334 "2017-06-26T14:11:17Z")
Fotheringay-Phipps wrote: “It never works that way ever. It’s not like there’s a special tax on working mothers which pays for child care. Or a special tax on “college graduates who are making more money with degrees than they would without” to pay for tuition subsidies.” No, it’s not like there’s a “special tax” on working mothers, to use only the first example, unless you wish to consider _all_ the taxes they pay working as opposed to not due lack of child care to be “special”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/335 "2017-06-26T14:53:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Pretty much agreed–although Dems seem likelier to put in caveats like “be sure you pay your workers enough money that they’re not on food stamps.” My point was to rebut your implication that it’s only Democrats who offer “free stuff”. The context of this discussion is whether the Democrats have an advantage in that their message is heavily based on “free stuff”. To the extent that there’s another type of “free stuff” being bandied by politicians of all stripes, with no correlation to either Republican or Democratic ideology, then it’s not relevant in this context. > [@E-DUB](#): > > Fotheringay-Phipps wrote: “It never works that way ever. It’s not like there’s a special tax on working mothers which pays for child care. Or a special tax on “college graduates who are making more money with degrees than they would without” to pay for tuition subsidies.” > > No, it’s not like there’s a “special tax” on working mothers, to use only the first example, unless you wish to consider _all_ the taxes they pay working as opposed to not due lack of child care to be “special”. Makes no difference. Bottom line is that when a politician is promising child care, it’s not going to be “_paid for through increased revenue_” as you suggested in post #319. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/336 "2017-06-26T23:57:31Z")
Free stuff can still be a popular idea, except that few believe it’s free anymore. That’s a good thing. And it’s not. Even when Democrats do something by “taxing the rich”, that’s only an introductory price. As the programs grow, they can only be supported by the broad middle class. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/337 "2017-06-27T02:30:57Z")
Then it’s in the party’s interest to promote a broad middle class through programs like, I don’t know, daycare and tuition subsidies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/338 "2017-06-27T04:13:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But they **do** focus on things that matter most to the bulk of the American people. It’s just that the Republicans put a lot of effort into the idea that the Democrats don’t, just like they put a lot of effort into pretending that the entire Democratic approach is “giving lazy people free stuff”. > > The Democrats don’t need to lie per se, but they need to regain control of their own narrative and tell a better story. Because all this "The Democrats would win if only they would have policies that benefited more Americans " is nonsense when one considers that 1) they do, and 2) the Republicans are busy passing policies that are screwing vast numbers of Americans. I’m honestly at a loss why you think your post is contrary to anything I said in the post of mine that you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/339 "2017-06-27T09:57:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m honestly at a loss why you think your post is contrary to anything I said in the post of mine that you quoted. It was following on from your last non-asterisked sentence. I realize we are largely in agreement, some nuance aside. And some of that was also elaborating on other themes in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575/340 "2017-06-27T13:06:00Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Then it’s in the party’s interest to promote a broad middle class through programs like, I don’t know, daycare and tuition subsidies. That would be true if the same people benefitting didn’t have to pay for it. There are no middle class subsidies possible without middle class taxation. There’s a reason SS and Medicare are paid for through payroll taxes, and most state and local infrastructure through sales and property taxes. Taxes on the rich are fine for limited government functions, but the welfare state can only be paid for by the middle class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ga-special-election/787575.md?page=18)