# Game 3 at Fenway, WTF?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130 "2003-10-13T05:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/61 "2003-10-13T23:57:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by terd\_ferguson \* > \*\*This, I thought, was interesting. > [Here is the link.](http://www.espn.go.com/page2/s/caple/031013.html) \*\* **terd** , please familiarise yourself with the term “fair use”. Kudos on including the link, but you can’t just copy and past an entire copyrighted article. I’ve shortened your quote to reflect what amounts to a reasonable share of what one can post. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/62 "2003-10-14T01:22:39Z")
[Zimmer issues apology.](http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20031012&content_id=576551&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) Just in case anybody was really wondering whether or not he actually did own up to his actions. I have no dog in this fight, the Yankees beat the Twins, and Pedro has always been sort of a gutless coward as far as this part of his game is concerned, so I don’t really care either way. They would both lose to the Cubs anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/63 "2003-10-14T09:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* You want to throw inside? Throw inside. You want to hit a player? Hit them on the leg or the shoulder or the wrist, if you absolutely must. > > But don’t hit them in the head. Don’t throw **behind** their head, the scariest kind of a pitch a batter can face. His first instinct is to back UP. > > Pedro knows all of this. He has excellent control. Ergo, he intended to hurt Karim Garcia. > > AND > > Martinez is a despicable coward who wouldn’t last ten seconds in the batter’s box. \*\* Can we PLEASE get some perspective here??? Excellent control does NOT mean you put EVERY FREAKING PITCH exactly where you want it. If that were true, he wouldn’t have walked anyone all year. We must accept the fact that a pitcher with excellent control will let a ball get away from him from time to time. Ergo, the only person who knows if he intended to hit Garcia is Pedro. BTW, why would he hit a cream puff hitter like Garcia??? Don’t let the fact he’s a couple of HR’s this year fool you. He’s nobody that any pitcher need fear. Now, on to the nonsense that “Pedro wouldn’t pull this crap if he had to bat”. It IS nonsense. He spent 6 years in the NL, including 4 in Montreal where he pitched just the way he does now. That’s why Boston went out to get him. Pitchers like Pedro HAVE to pitch inside and they end up hitting lots of gus. Kevin Brown hit a lot of guys pitching inside in the AL, and he’s hit a lot more since coming to the NL. Kerry Wood has hit **21** guys this year, more than Pedro. Back in the old days, hitters didn’t whine so much about being hit and take it as a personal injustice and a threat to their manhood. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/64 "2003-10-14T11:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > But then, that just asks the question: Is Boston even Capable of providing sufficient competant security to handle the series? God Knows they couldn’t even keep some Saudis with boxcutters off of flights out of Logan two years ago. > We paid for that lapse of security too. Shut your pie-hole, you whiny little bitch. That’s about the most tasteless steaming pile of crap I’ve seen dumped on this board in a while…using 9/11 to bitch about a fucking sports event. Christ. Fuck you. Fuck your mother. Christ. Security was instantly in the bullpen breaking up the fight (but not before your little shit of a reliever could put cleat marks on a guy who was just cheering for his team), and I’m sick of all this “this wouldn’t happen at Yankee Stadium” bullshit. Last I checked, there have been plenty brawls at Yankee Stadium. Sit and swivel, asshole. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/65 "2003-10-14T12:21:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > **Excellent control does NOT mean you put EVERY FREAKING PITCH exactly where you want it. If that were true, he wouldn’t have walked anyone all year. We must accept the fact that a pitcher with excellent control will let a ball get away from him from time to time. Ergo, the only person who knows if he intended to hit Garcia is Pedro.** Well, no. You can certainly walk people by pitching around them - that is, aiming just off the corners, not giving the batter anything to really slam. He does have excellent control. My opinion is that he knew exactly where the pitch was going, and his past supports this to a degree. You’re right, he’s the only one who knows for sure, but I don’t think it’s likely one simply got away from him. > [@](#): > > BTW, why would he hit a cream puff hitter like Garcia??? Don’t let the fact he’s a couple of HR’s this year fool you. He’s nobody that any pitcher need fear. Because he was frustrated, and when he gets frustrated he just hits the first person he sees. I don’t think he was hitting him to avoid Garcia’s getting a hit. I think he was hitting him (if indeed he did) because he was pissed at himself and the Yankees. > [@](#): > > Now, on to the nonsense that “Pedro wouldn’t pull this crap if he had to bat”. It IS nonsense. He spent 6 years in the NL, including 4 in Montreal where he pitched just the way he does now. That’s why Boston went out to get him. I don’t think he pitches the same now as he did then. He walks far, far fewer now than he did in Montreal and Los Angeles; ergo, his control has improved greatly. > [@](#): > > Pitchers like Pedro HAVE to pitch inside and they end up hitting lots of gus. Kevin Brown hit a lot of guys pitching inside in the AL, and he’s hit a lot more since coming to the NL. Kerry Wood has hit **21** guys this year, more than Pedro. Maybe you’re confusing “pitching inside” with “hitting a batter with intent to injure.” They’re not quite the same thing, **spooje**. The pitcher needs to gain that inner part of the plate. Absolutely must to be a successful pitcher. Pitchers who are fearless and have excellent control can do this. But it takes no fearlessness OR control to throw at a batter’s head. In fact, one might argue it takes cowardice, since the pitcher in this equation won’t have to face the opposing pitcher. > [@](#): > > Back in the old days, hitters didn’t whine so much about being hit and take it as a personal injustice and a threat to their manhood. Sure they did. There have been brushback pitches and brawls for as long as the game’s been around. This is not a new phenomenon. What’s new is that more batters are leaning over the plate and are getting hit. What **should** happen is that the umps enforce that rule about at least attempting to get out of the way. Nowadays, the batter has padding that softens the blow to an extent, and in some cases he doesn’t mind getting hit so much. Getting hit should be a deterrant to hovering over the plate. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/66 "2003-10-14T12:25:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > \*\*Christ. Security was instantly in the bullpen breaking up the fight (but not before your little shit of a reliever could put cleat marks on a guy who was just cheering for his team), and I’m sick of all this “this wouldn’t happen at Yankee Stadium” bullshit. Last I checked, there have been plenty brawls at Yankee Stadium. Sit and swivel, asshole. \*\* To be fair, Jeff Nelson isn’t really all that little, at 6’8", 250… > **[Jeff Nelson Stats | Baseball-Reference.com](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nelsoje01.shtml)** > > Career: 48-45, 3.41 ERA, 829 SO, P, AllStar, Mariners/Yankees/... 1992-2006, t:R, born in MD 1966, Nellie ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/67 "2003-10-14T12:33:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* Maybe you’re confusing “pitching inside” with “hitting a batter with intent to injure.” They’re not quite the same thing, **spooje**. The pitcher needs to gain that inner part of the plate. Absolutely must to be a successful pitcher. Pitchers who are fearless and have excellent control can do this. But it takes no fearlessness OR control to throw at a batter’s head. In fact, one might argue it takes cowardice, since the pitcher in this equation won’t have to face the opposing pitcher. > > \*\* Just let me get something straight. Do you think Clemens _meant_ to hit Piazza in the head? Would you accuse him of cowardice? How about Randy Johnson? He’s been accused of head hunting a number of times, both in the AL and NL. I would need to see some evidence that Clemens or Martinez would alter their pitching style to avoid getting hit themselves. I stand by my assertion that Clemens and Martines would pitch exactly the same in the NL. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/68 "2003-10-14T12:36:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* . What’s new is that more batters are leaning over the plate and are getting hit. What **should** happen is that the umps enforce that rule about at least attempting to get out of the way. Nowadays, the batter has padding that softens the blow to an extent, and in some cases he doesn’t mind getting hit so much. Getting hit should be a deterrant to hovering over the plate. \*\* I agree here. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/69 "2003-10-14T12:42:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Just let me get something straight. Do you think Clemens _meant_ to hit Piazza in the head? Would you accuse him of cowardice? How about Randy Johnson? He’s been accused of head hunting a number of times, both in the AL and NL. I would need to see some evidence that Clemens or Martinez would alter their pitching style to avoid getting hit themselves. > > I stand by my assertion that Clemens and Martines would pitch exactly the same in the NL. \*\* I don’t know if he did. I think he meant to hit him with the bat, though. Is he a coward? Would he pitch the same in the NL? No way. He would pitch inside, but he’d be less enthusiastic about pitching way inside. For a pitcher with excellent control, this distinction can be made. Clemens is a great pitcher who can throw near a batter to intimidate him with impunity. If he were in the NL, he’d still pitch inside, but I don’t think he’d be as likely to throw at people, which I think he does on occasion to send a “message.” ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/70 "2003-10-14T12:58:02Z")
> [@](#): > > To be fair, Jeff Nelson isn’t really all that little, at 6’8", 250… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/71 "2003-10-14T13:01:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe you’re confusing “pitching inside” with “hitting a batter with intent to injure.” They’re not quite the same thing, **spooje**. The pitcher needs to gain that inner part of the plate. Absolutely must to be a successful pitcher. Pitchers who are fearless and have excellent control can do this. But it takes no fearlessness OR control to throw at a batter’s head. In fact, one might argue it takes cowardice, since the pitcher in this equation won’t have to face the opposing pitcher. Except that–as has been repeatedly shown by anecdote and statistic–having to face the opposing pitcher is absolutely no deterrant, because they do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/72 "2003-10-14T13:09:12Z")
Do what? Intentionally throw at a batter or unintentionally hit one? You can compare HBP stats from league to league, but it’s tough to say definitively that pitchers in NL don’t headhunt as much as those in the AL, and vice versa. I can only suppose the former is true because the pitcher needs fear no retribution. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/73 "2003-10-14T13:45:50Z")
Yeah, except that plenty of pitchers acquire their headhunter reps in the NL. As for headhunting vs incidental plunks, which sounds more far-fetched to you: 1. NL pitchers don’t worry about getting thrown at, especially since they may not be batting for another 2 or 3 innings when things may have cooled down, and no opposing pitcher wants to put an easy out on base, especially with the top of the order probably batting after the pitcher. 2. AL pitchers–since the advent of the DH–have so much better control that they can headhunt, and still hit few enough batters unintentionally that they end up with lower HBP stats than NL pitchers. To me, No. 2 sounds extraordinarily unlikely; you’re basically saying that having a DH gives the pitcher better control. Or that NL players stand literally on top of the plate, or something like that. For the 2002 stats, the NL averaged 55 hit batters per team, the AL 61. Not a huge difference–one batter every 27 games. Especially since the AL includes the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, who led MLB with 94 of their batters hit. Why in god’s name anybody would bother to throw at the Devil Rays is beyond me. So are you telling me that AL pitchers have such better control that they can headhunt _and_ end up with essentially the same number of total plunks? ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/74 "2003-10-14T13:50:45Z")
I should add: For 2001, the AL is a good bit higher than the NL. For 2000, the AL is well below the NL. To me, this says plunkings–both intentional and not–occur at the same rate in both leagues. So unless you’re going to argue that AL pitchers somehow manage to hit fewer batters accidentally than NL pitchers, I think the stats back me up. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/75 "2003-10-14T13:52:40Z")
Is it not SOP in the NL for a pitcher to hit the 1st batter he faces after one of HIS players is beaned? ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/76 "2003-10-14T13:58:20Z")
I thought it was like that in either league, **spooje**. Yes, the stats back you up overall, **Myrr21**. You take your average AL pitcher, even one with a headhunting reputation, and throw him in the NL, and he probably won’t change much, if at all. Pedro _may_ be a special case, however, if only because he’s a lot scrawnier than most players. _May_. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/77 "2003-10-14T14:28:03Z")
Well, overall Pedro has hit batters slightly more often in the AL than the NL (one batter every 23 innings vs 19). However, his worst seasons–for that stat–were the same: 1 batter every 13 innings. Moreover, in the season after his worst in each case, he actually hit fewer in the AL than NL, suggesting that opposing pitchers didn’t “teach him a lesson”. So, it’s pretty much a wash statistically for him. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/78 "2003-10-14T18:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _spooje:_ > Is it not SOP in the NL for a pitcher to hit the 1st batter he faces after one of HIS players is beaned? Not exactly. Sometimes teams will use a sense of parity in deciding whom to plunk. For example, you hit our star player, we’re going to hit your star player. Or, you hit our shortstop, we’re going to hit your shortstop. Or sometimes they plunk the pitcher. Of course, this rarely happens anymore, since any suspicious hit batsmen is usually immediately followed by a warning to both benches that ejections will follow another suspicious pitch, so the other team is largely prohibited from retaliating. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/79 "2003-10-14T18:27:53Z")
Interesting column by Bob Klapisch on [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com) about two ex-Yankees and how they feel about the whole mess: > **[Klapisch: Ex-Yanks soil these Sox](https://www.espn.com/mlb/playoffs2003/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=1637695)** > > Think emotions are running high in Boston? Check out the venom a couple of former Bronx Bombers feel. Interesting and funny in spots. But remember, these are ex-players, so of course their viewpoints are somewhat colored… ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130/80 "2003-10-14T22:54:15Z")
What really gets me in this thread and the related one are the people who keep saying that Zimmer was incapable of hurting Martinez just because he’s 72 years old and fat. Ridiculous. Either you have little to no actual experience with people over the age of 60, or you are allowing your desire to demonize Martinez even more to blind you to reality. My father is 69 years old, out of shape, was never a professional athelete, and is by nature a peaceful person. However, if he somehow became enraged enough to attack you, you would ignore him at your peril. That having been said, it was nice to see that Zimmer had the class to publicly apologize for his actions. And while I don’t condone those actions, considering his personal experience I can understand them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-3-at-fenway-wtf/207130.md?page=5)