# Game devs still don't get it in 2017 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894 "2017-09-09T14:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/141 "2017-09-14T02:10:44Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Awwww, sorry I hurt your feelings. Fine, fine… we can talk about your “I had to pirate it because they tried to stop me from pirating it!” scenario. > > It’s fucking stupid and you should be ashamed for presenting it. Happy now? > > That would probably sound more cutting from someone who didn’t lead with “It’s not stealing if I maybe pay for it after I steal it” as his prime argument 😃 That’s an interesting rewording of “I had to pirate it because the legal game was utterly unplayable due to shitty DRM”. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/142 "2017-09-14T02:56:26Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > That’s an interesting rewording of “I had to pirate it because the legal game was utterly unplayable due to shitty DRM”. Anything that has “I had to pirate it” in it is morally bankrupt anyway, so the wording doesn’t make a lot of difference. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/143 "2017-09-14T07:08:59Z")
I pretty much agree with \*\*Delayed Reflex \*\*in their last post. I think that captures the balance of harms and drivers very eloquently. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/144 "2017-09-14T16:25:00Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Legitimately sold digital didn’t become a major factor until well into the 2000s, and streaming not until well into the decade after. She decided to stop after her 1994 album when music piracy exploded with Napster. I mean, maybe she’s a psychic and knew what would be the streaming scene fifteen years later or maybe her own word on her reasons makes more sense than your attempt at defending how your stealing doesn’t hurt anyone. Napster didn’t exist until 1999. I guess she is a psychic, but her powers only extend 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/145 "2017-09-14T16:52:27Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > That’s an interesting rewording of “I had to pirate it because the legal game was utterly unplayable due to shitty DRM”. It doesn’t really matter anyway. **Canuck** offered two “no loss” scenarios to defend his position that there’s a notable difference between stealing something digitally or physically. One is “But I already bought it legally” and the other is “I pay for it some time after I steal it”. The former was something no one was talking about anyway because few people would consider it pirating and the latter applies to physical CDs or bags of cat food or electric pencil sharpeners as much as it does digital products so it’s about the worst possible defense of his “digital means no loss” argument. > [@gatorslap](#): > > Napster didn’t exist until 1999. I guess she is a psychic, but her powers only extend 5 years. You’re correct, my mistake. I was remembering music piracy and trading going on during and immediately after college but it was largely through Usenet and IRC back then. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/146 "2017-09-14T17:09:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You seem to be accepting my point whereas **Jophiel** will not, that different levels of seriousness exist within the concept of “stealing”. That’s not at all what you’ve been saying in this thread up to this point. You’ve been very explicit that downloading pirated software is not stealing, and that it’s “hyperbole” to use the same word for both situations. Are you now dropping that argument? > [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Really? If I go to gameshop and steal a physical copy of a game, they can no longer sell it. They have experienced a quantifiable loss. > > If I go the the pirate bay and torrent it, gameshop can still sell that physical copy. If we want to torture the hypothetical a bit, it can easily be argued that me pirating it doesn’t prove that I haven’t already bought a copy (and then pirated it because of DRM issues) or that I will buy a copy in the future (because I’m using the pirated copy as a demo.) Therefore, there is no quantifiable loss here. Do you think that everyone who downloads a torrent of a video game also buys a legitimate copy of it? Do you think a significant proportion of the people who download a torrent of a video game also buy a copy of it? If the answer to both of these questions is “no,” then my next question is, why did you think this comment was remotely relevant to the conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/147 "2017-09-14T17:33:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s not at all what you’ve been saying in this thread up to this point. You’ve been very explicit that downloading pirated software is not stealing, and that it’s “hyperbole” to use the same word for both situations. > > Are you now dropping that argument? If everyone else wants to call piracy “stealing” they can do and as I’m sure your scoured my posts for inconsistencies I’m sure you’ll see that I’ve accepted that use within this thread for the sake of advancing the discussion. Do I personally think piracy or copying of another virtual item for personal use is “stealing” in the same degree of seriousness as theft of a physical item…no and I personally wouldn’t use stealing to describe what pirates do. I’ve been very clear that I think it is wrong but not massively so, others disagree but my argument hasn’t changed. It is a lesser crime but one with few real victims and some beneficial outcomes for the consumer experience. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/148 "2017-09-14T18:26:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I personally wouldn’t use stealing to describe what pirates do. That’s fine but it requires ignoring the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/149 "2017-09-14T19:29:36Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I personally wouldn’t use stealing to describe what pirates do. [You’re about 200 years late there.](https://books.google.com/books?id=YRdFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=PI%27%27RATE,+v.t.+%22To+take+by+theft+or+without+right+or+permission,+as+books+or+writings.%22&source=bl&ots=TE9ZpLmJXO&sig=v8A0fgMG9brpDRKFRg4dl5Wl0QY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7_SktKXWAhVGylQKHYqCAngQ6AEIKzAB#v=onepage&q=PI''RATE%2C%20v.t.%20%22To%20take%20by%20theft%20or%20without%20right%20or%20permission%2C%20as%20books%20or%20writings.%22&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/150 "2017-09-14T20:15:40Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [You’re about 200 years late there.](https://books.google.com/books?id=YRdFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=PI%27%27RATE,+v.t.+%22To+take+by+theft+or+without+right+or+permission,+as+books+or+writings.%22&source=bl&ots=TE9ZpLmJXO&sig=v8A0fgMG9brpDRKFRg4dl5Wl0QY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7_SktKXWAhVGylQKHYqCAngQ6AEIKzAB#v=onepage&q=PI''RATE%2C%20v.t.%20%22To%20take%20by%20theft%20or%20without%20right%20or%20permission%2C%20as%20books%20or%20writings.%22&f=false) I’ll admit that I thought the earlier “old” definition was tongue in cheek. That’s pretty fascinating. Neat. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/151 "2017-09-14T21:27:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you think that everyone who downloads a torrent of a video game also buys a legitimate copy of it? Do you think a significant proportion of the people who download a torrent of a video game also buy a copy of it? > > If the answer to both of these questions is “no,” then my next question is, why did you think this comment was remotely relevant to the conversation? One - Of course not and Two -depends on what you call significant. As for why I thought it was relevant, I was responding to a specific statement from fuckwit that there was no difference between physical and digital theft. Given that fuckwit has no arugment except to insult everyone who disagrees with him, that was a complete waste of my time and I’m done here. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/152 "2017-09-14T21:30:53Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That’s fine but it requires ignoring the English language. No, it requires _choosing_ how to use the english language. We are lucky that it allows us many words to describe subtle nuances and differences in tone and severity. it certainly doesn’t demand that we use _specific_ words. Getting hit in the arse by a nerf gun and a .22 are both legitimate examples of being shot, I cannot argue otherwise by pure dictionary definition but I think choosing a more gentle term for the nerf gun would be perfectly legitimate and proportional as well. If you insisted “no dammit, you were shot, not “pinged” or “popped” or “tagged” you were shot!” then sorry, you may choose to do so but I’ll continue using something that more accurately fits the severity of the act. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/153 "2017-09-14T22:07:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Getting hit in the arse by a nerf gun and a .22 are both legitimate examples of being shot, I cannot argue otherwise by pure dictionary definition but I think choosing a more gentle term for the nerf gun would be perfectly legitimate and proportional as well. Except the term you keep using, “pirate”, explicitly means to acquire by theft as was previously noted. “I’m not stealing it, I’m just pirating it which means to steal it!” Hey, maybe say that you’re pilfering it or purloining it or swiping it but not the kind that means to steal it, oh no. > [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Given that fuckwit has no arugment except to insult everyone who disagrees with him, that was a complete waste of my time and I’m done here. I’m pretty sure I gave “It’s not stealing if I pay for it later!” exactly the level of response it deserved 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/154 "2017-09-14T22:59:40Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Except the term you keep using, “pirate”, explicitly means to acquire by theft as was previously noted. “I’m not stealing it, I’m just pirating it which means to steal it!” Hey, maybe say that you’re pilfering it or purloining it or swiping it but not the kind that means to steal it, oh no. What’s weird is that he’s balking at “steal” because he feels its negative connotations are too strong for the act being discussed… but is okay with “pirate” which has specific connotations not just of theft on a grand scale, but also rape and murder. > [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > One - Of course not and Two -depends on what you call significant. As for why I thought it was relevant, I was responding to a specific statement from fuckwit that there was no difference between physical and digital theft. Given that fuckwit has no arugment except to insult everyone who disagrees with him, that was a complete waste of my time and I’m done here. Oh, it wasn’t just \*your \*time that was wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/155 "2017-09-15T07:26:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What’s weird is that he’s balking at “steal” because he feels its negative connotations are too strong for the act being discussed… but is okay with “pirate” which has specific connotations not just of theft on a grand scale, but also rape and murder. Oh I know, it’s almost like I think different words have different connotations for different people in different contexts, how ridiculous. A phenomena in the UK in the 60’s was the concept of the unlicenced radio stations, based on offshore ships and broadcasting the new and groovy tunes over the stuffy airwaves. They were called “pirate” radio stations but in general people were happy to use that word in an affectionate and mildly appreciative way even with its association with theft, murder, rape and sea shanties, that must blow your mind. But all of this nitpicking over word definitions is the last refuge of a dead thread. Right at the start I stated that I don’t consider it “stealing” but also accepted that people wanted to use that word themselves to give the act the seriousness that they think it deserves. I continue to use milder words because that’s how I see it. Pretty sure that was sorted out somewhere in page 1. If you think that by somehow forcing me to use the word “steal” or “theft” (I won’t) or agreeing that others legitimately can (I do) you automatically prove that it is an act on a level with physical theft and material harm and damage then sorry, I just don’t agree. If you understand why you want to use the word steal then you’ll understand why I prefer not to. The more interesting points are the historical and ongoing battle with pirates, DRM, digital media and distribution companies and the implications for industry and consumers but sadly we seem to have drifted off-course. (legal disclaimer - the previous statement in no way suggests that any physical movement has taken place due to wind or current and any “course” mentioned is taken to mean a generally accepted metaphorical and virtual direction of travel rather a clearly delineated sporting circuit or route) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/156 "2017-09-15T10:49:37Z")
So who \*should \*pay for video games? Not you, obviously. Are you counting on suckers like me to keep the industry afloat? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/157 "2017-09-15T12:31:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Right at the start I stated that I don’t consider it “stealing” but also accepted that people wanted to use that word themselves to give the act the seriousness that they think it deserves. No, people are using that word because _it is literally stealing_. One group of people is using the word that literally describes what you’re doing and you’re doing some stereotypical movie bad guy thing where you say “[Crime] is such an ugly word; I prefer to call it…” Except said bad guy at least has enough self-awareness to recognize that he’s full of shit when he says it and doesn’t embarrass himself by arguing with the good guy over the definition of blackmail or murder. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/158 "2017-09-15T13:26:34Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > No, people are using that word because _it is literally stealing_. One group of people is using the word that literally describes what you’re doing and you’re doing some stereotypical movie bad guy thing where you say “[Crime] is such an ugly word; I prefer to call it…” Except said bad guy at least has enough self-awareness to recognize that he’s full of shit when he says it and doesn’t embarrass himself by arguing with the good guy over the definition of blackmail or murder. Is that “literally” meaning “strictly” or meaning “emphatically”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/159 "2017-09-15T13:35:06Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > No, people are using that word because _it is literally stealing_. One group of people is using the word that literally describes what you’re doing… Come again? have you been paying attention _at all_? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894/160 "2017-09-15T13:43:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So who \*should \*pay for video games? Not you, obviously. Are you counting on suckers like me to keep the industry afloat? In the last three months I have injected over £500 into the video game industry for hardware and software, all of it legit, all of it willingly. The reason I’m happy to do so is because the games are high quality, easy to use, instant access, at a price point I’m willing to pay and with a good level of resale value. I’m happy to support developers that give me what I want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-devs-still-dont-get-it-in-2017/795894.md?page=9)