# Game of Thrones 2.03 "What Is Dead May Never Die" 4/15 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862 "2012-04-15T17:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/81 "2012-04-18T17:48:00Z")
Tyrion’s “guards” were Bronn and Shagga, who he’s presumably already paying. Littlefinger already knows the same secret and has the same motivations for keeping it kept–he’s hitched his cart to the Lannister wagon at this point. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/82 "2012-04-18T18:10:29Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I got the impression based on the look shared between them that the first coin was payment for the job, and the second was for silence. I assumed the first coin was for compensation, since Pycelle was dragged away before he could pay her. But, when Tyrion sees Pycelle’s grossness as he’s being dragged away, he feels sorry for her and gives her another coin. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/83 "2012-04-18T18:57:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > There is nothing about drowning on the show though, that is one of those things that against the rules. The priest specifically mentions something about “let those who are drowned be revived”. I’ve never read the books, but I certainly expected him to have been drowned, or at least something more intense than a little water pouring over his face. ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/84 "2012-04-18T19:15:55Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > After Tyrion had Pycelle locked up I was wondering what kind of political clout do Maesters have if any? > > Surely they must be a bit ticked off that the Grand Maester was summarily arrested? They could be like the wizards of Discworld in that any higher-up removed[sup]\*[/sup] is a good opportunity for career advancement. Who knows, the next Grand Maester might send Tyrion a fruit basket as a thank you. [sup]\*Either alive or dead, though mostly dead.[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/85 "2012-04-18T19:24:10Z")
Here’s the dialog: **Priest:** Theon of the House Greyjoy, you would this day consecrate your faith to the Drowned God? **Theon:** I would. **Priest:** Kneel. \ Let Theon your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt. \ Bless him with stone. Bless him with steel. **Theon:** What is dead may never die. **Priest:** What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger. Stand. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/86 "2012-04-18T20:25:15Z")
Does the H.P. Lovecraft Estate get royalties for all of the Drowned God references? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/87 "2012-04-18T21:59:07Z")
Oh, hey - thanks **Voltaire.** ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/88 "2012-04-19T03:40:19Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Tyrion’s “guards” were Bronn and Shagga, who he’s presumably already paying. Littlefinger already knows the same secret and has the same motivations for keeping it kept–he’s hitched his cart to the Lannister wagon at this point. Just watched for the third time. Tyrion and the whore definitely exchanged looks. Tyrion looked sympathetic and the whore appeared to be acknowledging something. I’m gonna go with both interpretations – Tyrion being sympathetic to a whore having to service Pycelle, and the whore being grateful as well as understanding that she should keep quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/89 "2012-04-19T08:46:27Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Does the H.P. Lovecraft Estate get royalties for all of the Drowned God references? George R.R. Martin used to play \*Call of Cthulhu \*back in the early 80’s with a bunch of Santa Fe science fiction and fantasy writers, including Roger Zelazny. I would have killed to sit in on those gaming sessions. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/90 "2012-04-19T15:15:16Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Just watched for the third time. Tyrion and the whore definitely exchanged looks. Tyrion looked sympathetic and the whore appeared to be acknowledging something. I’m gonna go with both interpretations – Tyrion being sympathetic to a whore having to service Pycelle, and the whore being grateful as well as understanding that she should keep quiet. I think that’s pretty much accurate. I was just surprised that nobody seemed to be noticing the subtext there. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/91 "2012-04-19T16:09:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Does the H.P. Lovecraft Estate get royalties for all of the Drowned God references? I’m pretty sure Cthulhu’s public domain at this point… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/92 "2012-04-19T16:15:18Z")
Even if Lovecraft’s works were still protected by copyright law, he wouldn’t have any exclusive right over the idea of a “drowned god.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/93 "2012-04-19T17:29:36Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Yeah, we’ve only seen Tywin with Jaime and Tyrion, and it seemed like he had more respect for Tyrion than for Jaime. I wonder if he suspected Cersei and Jaime’s relationship. He must know by now. His reaction will be interesting. I think it’s more of a begrudging respect for Tyrion and disappointment with Jaime. Jaime was the “golden boy” of the family and heir to the Lannister throne. Instead, he joins the Kingsguard, which would make him inelligible for the throne, just so he could be near his sister. Not to mention he got himself captured shortly after Tywin’s “straighten up and fly right” speech last season. Meanwhile, Tyrion, the dwarf, whose usually known mostly for drinking and whoring his way through Westeros, manages to escape from captivity and shows up leading a small army. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Does the H.P. Lovecraft Estate get royalties for all of the Drowned God references? Does Daft Punk get royalties for the harder…stronger reference?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/94 "2012-04-20T02:21:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Even if Lovecraft’s works were still protected by copyright law, he wouldn’t have any exclusive right over the idea of a “drowned god.” It was a joke. I see Martin’s Drowned God stuff as a thinly-veiled homage, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/95 "2012-04-20T03:55:12Z")
The squiddy fireplace mantel looked pretty Cthuloid to me… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/96 "2012-04-20T05:01:00Z")
Hmmm. George RR Martin and Roger Zelazny … you know, the scheming families of the Game of Thrones do remind me a lot of the scheming factions of the House of Amber. Perhaps Martin even conceptualized the Game of Thrones world as one of the Shadows of Amber. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/97 "2012-04-21T12:12:41Z")
Sansa seems very old not to have had the onset of menses. Isn’t it normally around 11 or 12 years? I wonder whether there’s something wrong with her. Or perhaps she has found a way to hide it, but since it hadn’t happened when she was still in Winterfell, where she had no reason to hide it and likely wouldn’t have gotten away with it, it seems unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/98 "2012-04-21T15:47:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sansa seems very old not to have had the onset of menses. Isn’t it normally around 11 or 12 years? I wonder whether there’s something wrong with her. > > Or perhaps she has found a way to hide it, but since it hadn’t happened when she was still in Winterfell, where she had no reason to hide it and likely wouldn’t have gotten away with it, it seems unlikely. If we can compare this world to ours, in medieval times the average age was 12-14 (per Wiki). I don’t have a cite, but I’ve heard that stress and not eating properly can delay menses. She’s certainly stressed and she’s probably picking at her food. If she starts menstruating any time soon, Shae would probably help her hide it. Maybe that’s why Sansa mentioned “washing my linen” when describing Shae’s duties – some foreshadowing, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/99 "2012-04-21T16:50:22Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > She’s certainly stressed and she’s probably picking at her food. I find it very easy to believe that stress could delay the onset of menstruation; I have it on very good authority that large amounts of stress/illness can cause a woman’s cycle to stop. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862/100 "2012-04-22T07:56:48Z")
Theon’s conflicted motivatons in this episode are interesting. At first you want him to side with the Starks - after all, they’ve raised him and treated him well, and he’s going back to a culture that’s basically a bunch of dicks, with a particularly dickish father. It’s hard to sympathize with the idea that he’d identify more with them than the Starks. But he’s also always gone out of his way to define himself by being the future lord of the Iron Islands. He’s always got a chip on his shoulder about people failing to respect his nobility and brushing him off as unimportant. He’s kind of gone overboard in trying to define himself by Iron Island culture, because he fears losing it and being just another guy amongst the northerners. He’s been romanticizing his home his entire life, and defined his ego by what he stands to inherit. Still, he did pledge his fealty to Robb when the “king of the north” thing was born, so, still, dick move. I wonder what the fallout is going to be from Grand Maester Pycelle. It seems like the Maesters are respected and important to this society - so I would imagine that imprisoning any of them would get quite a bit of flak, let alone the highest ranking one. The way Tyrion handled it was probably too crude and rough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-03-what-is-dead-may-never-die-4-15-no-book-spoilers/618862.md?page=6)