# Game of Thrones 2.04 "Garden of Bones" 4/22 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567 "2012-04-22T07:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/101 "2012-04-24T16:23:21Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Dany also didn’t nurture a shadowed, fanged creature in her womb. Mel created that thing. Dany only figured out how to hatch eggs. It’s like the difference between Dr. Frankenstein and a chicken farmer. I disagree. If Dany needed to physically birth the dragons, I don’t think she would have hesitated. **Shakester** , I don’t agree with that definition of evil. If killing innocents is evil, then anyone who leads an army is evil. I see evil as killing for amusement, like Joffrey, or killing for personal gain. Killing to serve your god, as it is in this context, isn’t evil. It’s cruel and misguided, but not evil. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/102 "2012-04-24T16:31:09Z")
Specially if your god you know, actually does shit for you. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/103 "2012-04-24T17:40:43Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Why? because she neutralized a genocidal murderous rapist? because she killed a baby that was prophecized to literally “fuck the world”? Mirri maz durr was perfectly justified in what she did and in any other story she would be a martyr. Agreed. This is why I love George R R Martin’s world. Everyone has a different point of view. Tyrion and Robb could both be considered “good guys” yet they are on opposite sides of the war fighting each other. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/104 "2012-04-24T17:46:00Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > **Shakester** , I don’t agree with that definition of evil. If killing innocents is evil, then anyone who leads an army is evil. I see evil as killing for amusement, like Joffrey, or killing for personal gain. Killing to serve your god, as it is in this context, isn’t evil. It’s cruel and misguided, but not evil. War is an unfortunate occasional necessity. Killing people just because they are of a different religion to yourself is _never_ necessary. I think you’ll find that most of the actual real-world’s governments make that distinction, too. Don’t make me start quoting the UN’s declaration of universal human rights. If you want to say that Westeros is a pseudo-medieval society and that killing people of other religions was more acceptable back in the olden days, OK, but it’s a fictional society, created in contemporary times for a contemporary audience, who (mostly) are going to see murdering people because they believe in different religions to oneself as evil. And, in my opinion, rightly so. No good comes from religious fanatics, in the real world _or_ in fictional pseudo-medieval fantasy worlds. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/105 "2012-04-24T17:46:42Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I wonder if Mr.-play-by-the-rules Stannis will yield to the rightful heir. Well Stannis fought in the rebellion that overthrew Dany’s father and put Stannis’s older brother on the throne, so… probably not. Renly was too young to fight in the rebellion. Ned says something about Stannis’s prowess as a military commander in season one, and Renly says something about his brothers looking down on him because he’s never been in a battle. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/106 "2012-04-24T18:00:46Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Well Stannis fought in the rebellion that overthrew Dany’s father and put Stannis’s older brother on the throne, so… probably not. Hey, yeah! How’d that happen? He should live by his own rules: put himself death for treason while simultaneously crowning himself king. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/107 "2012-04-24T18:08:50Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Hey, yeah! How’d that happen? He should live by his own rules: put himself death for treason while simultaneously crowning himself king. It’s the Robert E. Lee dilemma - loyalty to the country as a whole, or loyalty to hearth and home? He had to betray something either way. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/108 "2012-04-24T18:16:03Z")
I have a thought on Dany’s refusal to show the dragons. First of all, she is Daenerys Stormborne, the Khaleesi. Fully equal to the 13 (from her perspective) and does not have to do anything to earn entrance into their city. Will it probably end up in her death? Sure but that is a risk she is willing to take and I can’t think she honestly believes the will refuse entrance. Maybe bluff a bit but ultimately she believes they will let her in. Why not just show the dragons then? IIRC, they never said show us the dragons and we’ll let you in. It was “we don’t believe you are the Mother of Dragons. prove yourself to us” and I don’t think Dany thinks she needs to prove herself to anybody. Also there was a pride issue. Why make the dragon specticle public? Why not have the “Merchant” go up to Dany and say “I’d love to see the dragons?” Because it had nothing to do with dragons just like it had nothing to do with fear of being overrun by a horde of savage warriors. Dany recognizes this and is willing to stand on her pride. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/109 "2012-04-24T19:25:55Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I can’t see how giving birth to smoke-demon baby could possibly turn out to be a good thing. This would make a great sig line. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/110 "2012-04-24T20:36:21Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Question: do people think Melisandre’s little display last episode automatically mean she is evil? I am having an argument on another board who see it as uncategorally evil no matter what. > [@Shakester](#): > > I can’t see how giving birth to smoke-demon baby could possibly turn out to be a good thing. I’m not getting a lot of moral ambiguity from Melisandre so far. Id say evil is a pretty safe hypothesis. > [@AuntiePam](#): > > How are they defining “evil”? “Not a nice person”? > > She’s conniving and manipulative. Her agenda seems to be to put Stannis on the throne and thereby spread her religion. If Stannis wins and she starts burning non-believers, she’s still not evil – she’s just playing the game, doing what winners do. > > I don’t think she wants power for its own sake – she has a mission. That doesn’t make her evil. At the very least, Melisandre considers herself to be 100% good. (Not that it’s necessarily true.) Remember the dialog when Davos was ferrying her to land: > [@GoT dialog](#): > > **Mel:** Are you afraid, Onion Knight? > > **Davos:** As someone once told me, the night is dark and full of terrors. > > **Mel:** You’ve carried more unpleasant cargo in your time. \ Are you a good man, Sir Davos Seaworth? > > **Davos:** I’d say my parts are mixed, my lady, good and bad. > > **Mel:** If half an onion is black with rots, it’s a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil. > > **Davos:** Which are you? > > **Mel:** Oh, good! I’m a knight myself, of sorts - a champion of light and life. > > **Davos:** Well that must be very \ for you. \*(BTW: Did anyone catch what that mumbled word was?) \* Also, I liked the unspoken acknowledgement of how Stannis had an off-screen change of heart regarding his confidence in Mel’s Lord of Light assisting him in his war. Two episodes ago, Stannis was expressing doubt about defeating Renly and didn’t seem at all confident that the Lord of Light would be any help in this regard. Then, he has some hot sex atop a battle map of Westeros. Now, in this episode, after apparently having seen how quickly Mel’s pregnancy developed, he had the utmost confidence that simply bringing her to shore to deliver her “child” would win him the war. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/111 "2012-04-24T20:47:04Z")
Well that must be very nice for you. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/112 "2012-04-24T20:59:23Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Much as I love some female nudity, I thought the scene with Joffrey and the whores was just totally unnecessary. We already knew he was a sadistic bastard, and given the scene with Sansa, we even got the idea there were sexual overtones to it. This. One of the best things about the books (no spoiler coming, I promise) is that the characters, for the most part, seem human, with understandable, if perhaps not sympathetic, motivations. To push his character even further into the sneering evil end of the pool weakens, rather than strengthens it. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/113 "2012-04-24T21:02:46Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Well that must be very nice for you. Thanks. That does seem right, and I considered “nice”, but for some reason I kept hearing two syllables there. I can’t wait to see how Davos’ attitude towards Melisandre changes. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/114 "2012-04-25T04:50:29Z")
I don’t like the way it’s been going with Littlefinger lately. In the first season, he seemed to be relatively cautious and in tune with the pulse of the political goings on, and this season it’s blunder after blunder. Threatning Cercei, antagonizing Margaery after coming to Renly under the pretense of being friendly, picking the most tone-deaf retarded approach with Caitlin. Last season gave the impression that he was in the same league as Varys. This season he’s bumbling. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/115 "2012-04-25T05:00:54Z")
Forgot to ask - the knight who lead the group to capture Arya from Syrio - was that Sir Meryn? I remember thinking at the time how badass and knightly he seemed, but not as much this season. Then again, beating up helpless girls is not terribly badass. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/116 "2012-04-25T05:01:00Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Thanks. That does seem right, and I considered “nice”, but for some reason I kept hearing two syllables there. I just checked; I believe he does say “nice” but he slurs it so it sounds more like “nurse”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/117 "2012-04-25T05:18:21Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Forgot to ask - the knight who lead the group to capture Arya from Syrio - was that Sir Meryn? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/118 "2012-04-25T11:15:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Forgot to ask - the knight who lead the group to capture Arya from Syrio - was that Sir Meryn? I remember thinking at the time how badass and knightly he seemed, but not as much this season. Then again, beating up helpless girls is not terribly badass. Well the knights in GoT seem modeled more on the historical reality of knights than the fictional presentation. Basically, knights were just armored thugs for rich nobles. The whole chivalry thing was an attempt to convince them to be less thugly, and to whitewash them. I remember reading in Barbara Tuchman’s “A Distant Mirror” that one way competing lords would war with one another was to send their knights to cut off the hands and feet of the other lords’ peasants, so they’d be economic liabilities rather than assets. That’s the sort of knights you see in GoT. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/119 "2012-04-25T14:09:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Forgot to ask - the knight who lead the group to capture Arya from Syrio - was that Sir Meryn? I remember thinking at the time how badass and knightly he seemed, but not as much this season. Then again, beating up helpless girls is not terribly badass. I think he looked more badass because he had his helm on during that scene. The Kingsguard armor does look pretty cool, but Sir Meryn has a fat jowly face. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/120 "2012-04-25T17:04:43Z")
I just have to say, Renly’s antler/branch crown is the prettiest damn crown I’ve ever seen. It looks great on him, too. I want him to be king just so he can wear that crown. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567.md?page=7)