# Game of Thrones 2.04 "Garden of Bones" 4/22 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567 "2012-04-22T07:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/121 "2012-04-25T17:29:39Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t like the way it’s been going with Littlefinger lately. In the first season, he seemed to be relatively cautious and in tune with the pulse of the political goings on, and this season it’s blunder after blunder. Threatning Cercei, antagonizing Margaery after coming to Renly under the pretense of being friendly, picking the most tone-deaf retarded approach with Caitlin. Last season gave the impression that he was in the same league as Varys. This season he’s bumbling. I noticed that too. He was so cool and in-charge in S1, now he’s floundering. I think being played by Tyrion unsettled him. You don’t play Littlefinger – Littlefinger plays you! And I’m still hearing a change in his voice from S1. **miss elizabeth** , Renly’s crown is very nice. I also like the shade of red in Melisandre’s dress. Didn’t like Margaery’s dress though – the top looked like a bowl. You could put chips in there, if anyone had dip. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/122 "2012-04-25T17:36:28Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I noticed that too. He was so cool and in-charge in S1, now he’s floundering. I think being played by Tyrion unsettled him. You don’t play Littlefinger – Littlefinger plays you! > > And I’m still hearing a change in his voice from S1. > > **miss elizabeth** , Renly’s crown is very nice. I also like the shade of red in Melisandre’s dress. Didn’t like Margaery’s dress though – the top looked like a bowl. You could put chips in there, if anyone had dip. His crown is awesome!! Say it! :mad: Melisandre’s costumes do a great job of defining her character. They are sexy, but dangerous. And all the red is neat visually. Personally, I liked Margaery’s dress, but I know it was a little odd. That’s what I liked about it though! All her dresses are pretty fantastic, and a lot different that any other character. She would be fun to design for. I look forward to seeing more of her wardrobe. I hope that damn demon baby doesn’t kill them! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/123 "2012-04-25T18:12:25Z")
OK, I watched it twice now, and I can’t honestly say I knew who the two sides were in the battle early on. I assume the side with the wolves was House Stark, but whom did they fight against? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/124 "2012-04-25T18:57:31Z")
The Lannisters’ army, of course. It was stated explicitly in the opening scene and then again post-battle: “Five Lannister dead for every one of ours.” ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/125 "2012-04-25T19:11:50Z")
How long can Robb keep up his string of vicories? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/126 "2012-04-25T19:30:41Z")
Until Tywin shits out a shadow creature. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/127 "2012-04-25T19:53:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Until Tywin shits out a shadow creature. Didn’t he do that already? He’s called Tyrion. Well, he treats him like shit, anyways. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/128 "2012-04-25T21:53:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t like the way it’s been going with Littlefinger lately. I think Baelish was fairly reckless even in season one. 1. He brings Ned to a brothel and tells him that’s where he’s meeting Cat. Ned thinks this is some kind of vulgar joke, and nearly strangles Baelish. Baelish should have seen this coming. 2. He brags about his spies. When discussing things with Ned, Baelish talks about how many spies there are around, then points out one of his own. This isn’t particularly brazen, but it’s not really necessary either. Ned would believe that Baelish has his own spies; he doesn’t need to have a specific one pointed out. 3. He gets one-upped in his wonderful verbal spar with Varys. It ends with Varys asking, “Haven’t you heard?” with a smug look. While he’s no chump, it appears he’s not necessarily in Varys’ league. 4. Little Finger calls out Renly at the tournament, asking when he will “have” his friend. There’s no reason to bring that up except that his feelings were hurt and it’s a cutting insult. He doesn’t gain anything real from it, and throwing that information into the open (even though it seemed to go over many listeners’ heads) is reckless. Knowing secrets is useful; using those secrets just to taunt someone who mocked you shows a lack of discipline. In short, I think he’s cunning but too proud for his own good. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/129 "2012-04-25T23:11:10Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > The Lannisters’ army, of course. It was stated explicitly in the opening scene and then again post-battle: “Five Lannister dead for every one of ours.” Joffrey also says it was the new army Steffor(sp) Lannister was raising when he punishes Sansa for her brothers victory. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/130 "2012-04-26T03:45:07Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > the rat torture scene. . . > (snip) > > – all had me churning a bit inside. The rat torture scene made me laugh and laugh. It’s funny what will pull you “out of” a scene, but as someone who keeps and breeds rats, the constantly fake squealing and the “oh no the bucket of rats is eating my guts!” thing was just so ridiculous I could not stop laughing. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/131 "2012-04-26T03:53:01Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Joffrey also says it was the new army Steffor(sp) Lannister was raising when he punishes Sansa for her brothers victory. Speaking of which, Lancel tried to save face by saying that Robb only won the battle because he used some sort of sorcery control a horde of dire wolves, you know, because they couldn’t best the Lannisters in a fair fight. But is this supposed to make people feel better? My reaction would be like “OH SHIT, THEY HAVE A MAGIC DIREWOLF ARMY? FUCK!!!” ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/132 "2012-04-26T04:11:50Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > The rat torture scene made me laugh and laugh. It’s funny what will pull you “out of” a scene, but as someone who keeps and breeds rats, the constantly fake squealing and the “oh no the bucket of rats is eating my guts!” thing was just so ridiculous I could not stop laughing. Obviously, I can’t personally speak to the realism, but you don’t think that a rat would gnaw and scratch at flesh in a desperate attempt to escape a searing hot metal bucket? If rats are adept at gnawing through wood and the like, I’d think their teeth could make quick work of flesh if sufficiently motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/133 "2012-04-26T04:23:36Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > The rat torture scene made me laugh and laugh. It’s funny what will pull you “out of” a scene, but as someone who keeps and breeds rats, the constantly fake squealing and the “oh no the bucket of rats is eating my guts!” thing was just so ridiculous I could not stop laughing. [Earlier thread on a very similar scene in another movie.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=622020) Seems plausible to me that it would work. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/134 "2012-04-26T04:27:27Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Obviously, I can’t personally speak to the realism, but you don’t think that a rat would gnaw and scratch at flesh in a desperate attempt to escape a searing hot metal bucket? > > If rats are adept at gnawing through wood and the like, I’d think their teeth could make quick work of flesh if sufficiently motivated. Nope, not at all. The rat would panic and bounce around the bucket. There’s no way it would be focused and still and think to itself “Ooh, I know, I’ll gnaw my way out.” It just wouldn’t happen. Rats are prey animals when all is said and done, and they panic when shit goes bad. What a rat wants more than anything else is to HIDE. A rat in a hot bucket would be bouncing around shrieking but it would not sit still long enough to chew a dude’s guts. Rats are also extremely passive as opposed to aggressive (again, because they’re prey animals) which is one of the reasons they’re so often fed live to snakes. Many cornered rodents will attack a snake in desperation if fed live - very few rats will. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/135 "2012-04-26T04:28:25Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Obviously, I can’t personally speak to the realism, but you don’t think that a rat would gnaw and scratch at flesh in a desperate attempt to escape a searing hot metal bucket? > > If rats are adept at gnawing through wood and the like, I’d think their teeth could make quick work of flesh if sufficiently motivated. [Previous Thread on this Issue](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=622020)(not for GoT). \*\*CURSE YOU EVIL CAPTOR!!!1 \*\* Which, incidentally, is what I would yell if a guy put a rat in a bucket on my stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/136 "2012-04-26T04:40:34Z")
The thing is, the rat just wouldn’t behave this way, in my opinion. And I’ve handled some VERY panicked rats. I have no doubt the guy’s stomach would be scratched up, but nothing remotely life-threatening, mostly just from the nails as the rat banged itself crazily around trying to get off the bucket. It might dig the nails into the skin in an attempt to cling to the skin and not rest against the bucket, and I have no doubt the psychological affect would be pretty effective in getting someone to talk, but no, there’s no way a rat’s going to gnaw into a guy like that. Now, putting a cage around a guy’s head and letting a hungry or pissed-off rat bite the hell out of his face? I’d believe THAT no problem. Or if the bucket was around something that protruded (a penis or even a nipple) I’d have no problem believing THAT would get bitten. But against a smooth surface, the rat wouldn’t likely identify this as the softer thing that would be chew-through-able in order to escape. It would likely just identify it as “not hot enough to burn me - I should try to cling to this.” Chewing/gnawing is a dedicated activity, and isn’t really all that fast. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/137 "2012-04-26T04:50:10Z")
I found a source for a real-world use for this. [The Rise of the Dutch Republic - John Lothrop Motley - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=mDcOAAAAQAAJ&q=torture#v=onepage&q&f=false) Evidently it didn’t kill him, and they put coals into the holes the rats made. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/138 "2012-04-26T05:22:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I found a source for a real-world use for this. [The Rise of the Dutch Republic - John Lothrop Motley - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=mDcOAAAAQAAJ&q=torture#v=onepage&q&f=false) > > Evidently it didn’t kill him, and they put coals into the holes the rats made. Actually, I would be willing to believe the rats would try to dig if the guy was on his back and the bowl was over the top of them. But with the bucket on sideways like that with the guy sitting upright, it just make me laugh. But you know, that’s trying to dig their way to safety, that’s not chewing through a wall of meat. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/139 "2012-04-26T11:19:42Z")
Yeah, I didn’t buy that a rat would be able to burrow into your belly like that. I’m sure that you might have gotten well scratched up though, which might eventually be fatal in those conditions. But the whole Harrenhall scene seemed over the top to me anyway. Like something from a different show. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567/140 "2012-04-26T14:32:33Z")
Did anyone else laugh at the fact that Stannis corrected Davos’ remark about “The Red Woman” with “She has a name.” while her name hasn’t been mentioned on the show yet? (It would have been the perfect time to stick it in, I thought.) I see her name popping up in “unspoiled” discussions, including this thread. But unless I missed it, non-book readers have no idea of her name based on the show alone, no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-04-garden-of-bones-4-22-no-book-spoilers/619567.md?page=8)