# Game of Thrones 2.05 "The Ghost of Harrenhal" No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338 "2012-04-29T17:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/21 "2012-04-30T14:33:41Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Baby dragon cooking his meat was freaking adorable. Yeah, I was expecting to see some creme brulee for desert! Did I miss it, or was there no sex in this episode? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/22 "2012-04-30T14:42:08Z")
No sex or nudity at all, might be a first for the series. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/23 "2012-04-30T14:49:02Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > deus ex vāgīna God in Heaven, I so want a “Like” button right now… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/24 "2012-04-30T15:23:28Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > I’m a bit miffed that the quimspawn can apparently take any random person out of the game. Seems very deus ex machina to me. Yeah, I agree. Imagine that the birth of the shadow baby wasn’t a cliffhanger and we didn’t have a week to wonder WTF was that. Imagine it was born in the middle of an episode, and then in the very next scene it kills Renly. It would seem even more arbitrary and random and deus ex machina. But that’s essentially what this was, only with the weekly break. Now I know people will say “magic has been in the series from the start” - but magic was never this arbitrary. Take the dragons as a counterexample. We’d spent the whole series establishing that dragons are real in this world, they were simply all killed out. That the Targaryans are special and have a special relationship with dragons. That the eggs were gifted to Danerys because of it - and they are extremely rare and valuable. We even saw her try to hatch them in a fire. They spent an entire season slowly building up the reality of the dragons, finally culminating in their birth. But even then - they didn’t suddenly change the picture. They need time to grow. Time in which Danerys will struggle and suffer, time for gradual development of the story. What happened here is more like if we suddenly learned that Danerys had a hidden dragon egg, 5 minutes later hatched it, it grew to a full size in the span of a scene, and then went and burned down kings landing. Even then, there would be more precedent for the existance of dragons than for shadow babies. Now hopefully there’s more to the story, and Stannis will suffer consequences due to this, but as of now it feels far more random, unestablished, and arbitrary than any other magic in the series. It was a more interesting world with more players making a claim to the throne - and the way that was changed was far less interesting than if it were changed by more human means. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/25 "2012-04-30T16:23:30Z")
Didn’t bother me. There HAS been magic all along; this was just a particularly dark and lethal manifestation of it. Brienne is commited to the chivalric ideal, and Renly was the first person with any power both to take her seriously and to treat her with respect. She had a bit of a crush, but also was genuinely heartbroken when her liege lord died IN HER PRESENCE and she was not only unable to prevent his death, but was immediately blamed for it. It’s just about the worst possible thing that could happen to her. Loved the scene where Tyrion establishes his control over Lancel. Even better when he kicks the young Lannister knight out of his enclosed traveling couch onto the street. “Get out… you’re not even fun to torture,” or words to that effect. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/26 "2012-04-30T16:29:54Z")
I must say I find this a fascinating read. I’ve been expecting a negative reaction to the shadow babies when these episodes aired, I know I wasn’t sure how I felt about them at first. I don’t think it’s fair to say Renly was random however. And it’s not like the shadow is particularly powerful, a human assassin could have done the same thing (and would have taken less time to set up). It didn’t kill Cat, or Brienne, or Loras the Knight of Flowers, or the Margaery, or anybody else that might cause Stannis trouble in the future. It’s really no different from Jaqen H’ghar killing people for Arya. There’s always this sense of symmetry to the actions of people in Game of Thrones, which I love. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/27 "2012-04-30T16:35:05Z")
I don’t think a human assassin could have done what the shadow did. Renly was watched day and night by his Kingsguard, that would have been a suicidal mission with extremely low chance of success. Jaqen killed a minor lackey. Did the shadow really look like Stannis? i tried paying attention but it just looked like a shadow to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/28 "2012-04-30T16:41:00Z")
Well, an assassin nearly killed Bran, and that was inside Winterfell’s highly guarded castle. Just introduce a character that is willing to defect away from Renly, or who has a vendetta against him, but is one of his bannermen, or maybe someone who Stannis has some sort of connection with and bam, you’ve got a human assassin who can do the job. Maybe promise someone that their family will get a huge stack of gold for their sacrifice. This is just a magical way of doing it. We’d just miss out on the whole war-table sex thing. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/29 "2012-04-30T16:48:09Z")
Well, once again Bran doesn’t have a group of people who’s entire life is based around guarding him and nobody thought there was any reason for anyone to want him dead, unlike Renly. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/30 "2012-04-30T16:58:34Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > I’m a bit miffed that the quimspawn can apparently take any random person out of the game. Seems very deus ex machina to me. Well, it’s supposed to be, isn’t it ? I mean, the shadow is an avatar of the Lord of Light or something like that. So it’s a literal deus ex machina. Which, IMO, is the point of doing it that way rather than through mundane assassins: to show that the Red Woman is not just a crazy-ass priestess of some weird god, but rather a crazy-ass priestess of some weird god _that actually exists._ And takes a hands on approach to answering prayers & rituals. The reason it really seems to come out of nowhere is that we haven’t seen much of Stannis at all in the first season, nor his sidekicks. [QUOTE=DigitalC] I don’t think a human assassin could have done what the shadow did. Renly was watched day and night by his Kingsguard, that would have been a suicidal mission with extremely low chance of success. [/QUOTE] So flip a member of the King’s Guard. Easy peasy. Hey, if it worked for Raegar and Ned Stark, it can work for Renly. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/31 "2012-04-30T17:16:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Bit of a book answer (haven’t seen the episode yet) but the reason is that, while in the past Wildlings were, well, wild - a band of them crossing the wall and raising hell here and there, or bushwhacking a Night’s Watch patrol - they haven’t been seen in a while and there are rumours that they are gathering under the banner of some dude. > > If true, then that would be a Problem because there ain’t enough men left in the Night’s Watch to properly man a couple of forts, let alone the whole of the Wall. If an actual army of Wildlings showed up, the Watch would be proper fucked and Westeros along with them. So they need to a) confirm the rumour and b) take the facts back to the civilized world so that reinforcements are sent to either hold the Wall or hunt and kill the big gathering. > > Then there’s the matter of the white walkers which we’ve seen early in the first season - that must have spooked the Watch a bit since they used to be an old scary tale. Maybe the Wildlings know something they don’t and that’s why they’re gathering. > > Again, book answer that isn’t really self-evident in the show: Brienne is supposed to be ugly as sin. Like, borderline deformed. She has no hope in hell of ever marrying into a comfortable life ; but making it as a knight renowned for battle prowess coupled with above average loyalty could be a gate to that world, or so she thinks. > > She’s loyal to Renly because she’s got to be loyal to _someone_, and he seemed to be the only one to take her seriously. I know it’s mild, but please keep the book spoilers out of this thread. Feel free to answer the question in the Closed Spoilers thread, for instance, and link to your reply. - Gukumatz ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/32 "2012-04-30T17:55:04Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I had a hard time understanding a lot of the dialogue. If i hadn’t read the books i would have had no idea whatsoever who or what the nightwatch guys were talking about. Same here. Between trying the hear what they say, keep track of all the characters and answer my wife’s questions (“Wait, why are they marching around in the snow and who the heck is Gilly?”) I am basically just enjoying the show as if they were illustrations for the book. We didn’t see Rob or Jamie at all this episode, right? And about 5 minutes of Theon Greyjoy - is that plot line understandable by those who haven’t read the book? It’s obvious he is an angry young man and his sister keeps emasculating him at every turn but I don’t think they have been clear as to why. I don’t enjoy that dank, dreary storyline in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Craz3d117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@Craz3d117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craz3d117)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/33 "2012-04-30T17:57:48Z")
The only reason why I’m just a little concerned about the whole shadow being thing is that as far as we know so far it can do its bidding with impunity, which really challenges the status quo in the show. I mean, what’s stopping anyone else from being suddenly assassinated? No one can stop it. Again, this is just based off from what we know so far, but that’s why they really need to explain the hell out of it, and I hope the Starks get some magic of their own somehow. I think this is being implied by Bran’s visions, so we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Craz3d117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@Craz3d117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craz3d117)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/34 "2012-04-30T18:03:18Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Same here. Between trying the hear what they say, keep track of all the characters and answer my wife’s questions (“Wait, why are they marching around in the snow and who the heck is Gilly?”) I am basically just enjoying the show as if they were illustrations for the book. > > We didn’t see Rob or Jamie at all this episode, right? And about 5 minutes of Theon Greyjoy - is that plot line understandable by those who haven’t read the book? It’s obvious he is an angry young man and his sister keeps emasculating him at every turn but I don’t think they have been clear as to why. I don’t enjoy that dank, dreary storyline in any case. Theon is angry because he has reunited with his father, Balon Greyjoy for the first time in about ten years and Balon doesn’t seem to give a shite about him. Not only that, but he goes out of his way to make him feel weak and powerless and that his sister is more of a man than he’ll ever be. Now he’s on a quest to regain the favor of his father by betraying his previous captures, who he’s not sure if he loves or not. It’s tragic really. In a world of strong, confident powerful figures, Theon adds a sense of humanity to the series. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/35 "2012-04-30T18:11:47Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > We didn’t see Rob or Jamie at all this episode, right? And about 5 minutes of Theon Greyjoy - is that plot line understandable by those who haven’t read the book? It’s obvious he is an angry young man and his sister keeps emasculating him at every turn but I don’t think they have been clear as to why. It seems clear enough to me. Whether the reasons are – at this point in the show – exactly the same as the reasons in the book isn’t really a problem in my view. And maybe they’ll be revealed in their own time. This is an adaptation of the novel, an expression in its own right. Just like with the situation regarding the slanted cell that Tyrion was thrown into last season, the show decided to delay the revelation of its slanted nature. I’m satisfied for the show to reveal things to me at its own pace, with its own judgment regarding what knowledge is best revealed when. That’s a different experience from reading the book (I read the first book after watching the first season) and I’m satisfied with that. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/36 "2012-04-30T18:19:12Z")
It’s not that Balon doesn’t give a shit, it’s that he knows the Starks raised his son to be more like them than him. Theon didn’t even remember the Ironmen customs and came home wearing jewelry like a whore. The whole “they won’t respect you until you earn it” thing doesn’t just go for the underlings. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/37 "2012-04-30T18:21:04Z")
Geek alert! Noodling around on Wikipedia, and realized that Julian Glover, the guy who played Gen. Veers in _Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back_, is the same guy now playing Grand Maester Pycelle in _Game of Thrones_. [http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/61/DRow4-MajorGeneralVeers-ESB.jpg](http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/61/DRow4-MajorGeneralVeers-ESB.jpg) [![](https://unaffiliatedcritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Pycelle-Julian-Glover.jpg) ](https://unaffiliatedcritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Pycelle-Julian-Glover.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/38 "2012-04-30T18:49:31Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > I know it’s mild, but please keep the book spoilers out of this thread. Feel free to answer the question in the Closed Spoilers thread, for instance, and link to your reply. > > - Gukumatz Yup, sorry about that - I’ve already got PM’d about it. I confess I only skimmed the thread rules 'cause they looked like a software EULA :}, and I assumed it was about not spoiling future stuff rather that not discussing the books whatsoever. Won’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/39 "2012-04-30T18:58:39Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t think a human assassin could have done what the shadow did. Renly was watched day and night by his Kingsguard, that would have been a suicidal mission with extremely low chance of success. Jaqen killed a minor lackey. Did the shadow really look like Stannis? i tried paying attention but it just looked like a shadow to me. Well, they could, for instance, find a really good knight to win one of Renly’s tournaments. Then when Renly offered the knight anything under his power (as was the custom) the knight could choose a place on the kingsguard; leaving a perfect chance to assasinate Renly, and maybe even get away in the confusion. That is, after all, what the majority of the characters believe has happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338/40 "2012-04-30T19:08:50Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > I’m a bit miffed that the quimspawn can apparently take any random person out of the game. Seems very deus ex machina to me. Renly wasn’t “random.” He was the one that Stannis most needed dead. We don’t know much about the shadow. Is it a “one shot”? Will more need to be generated if more mayhem is needed? Does it have a range? It is ironic. Stannis, despite his lack of charisma & charm, does have more right to the throne than Renly–if Cersei’s children are judged ineligible. But his famous righteousness isn’t so admirable if he’ll let that thing work for him… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-05-the-ghost-of-harrenhal-no-book-spoilers/620338.md?page=3)