# Game of Thrones 2.06 "The Old Gods and the New" 5/6/12 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 6, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100 "2012-05-06T21:10:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/41 "2012-05-07T20:12:14Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > So what does Dany do now? The dragons were her only bargaining chip. She probably figures out how to get the dragons back. Maybe Ser Jorah can help. (Was he off looking for a ship or something?) ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/42 "2012-05-07T20:13:36Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > For me, one of the interesting questions raised in this episode is who commands the Hound’s loyalty? He rescues Sansa, and when Tyrion thanks him he says “I didn’t do it for you.” So who _did_ he do it for? Clearly not the Starks. I’m guessing Jamie rather than the Lannisters in general. Unless he really is loyal to Joff in the belief that Joff is Robert Baratheon’s son and heir. I thought Sandor (The Hound) calling her “Little Bird” was very telling. Has anyone else ever called her that? Or did it come from his own head? ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/43 "2012-05-07T21:44:05Z")
Loved the scene with the spice merchant. Was anyone else reminded of Vizzini from Princess Bride? The same arrogance and obvious pleasure at his own cleverness. I think he is what Vizzini would have become if he had lived to grow old and fat. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/44 "2012-05-07T22:04:59Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Loved the scene with the spice merchant. Was anyone else reminded of Vizzini from Princess Bride? The same arrogance and obvious pleasure at his own cleverness. I think he is what Vizzini would have become if he had lived to grow old and fat. I thought Dany’s retort and speech was really undermined by her tone and facial expressions - it looked and sounded like she was on the verge of bursting into hysterical tears for some reason. Which I suppose would be justified/understandable in this instance, but… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/45 "2012-05-07T22:07:02Z")
Yeah, she didn’t seem so tough in that exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/46 "2012-05-07T22:07:29Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I thought Sandor (The Hound) calling her “Little Bird” was very telling. Has anyone else ever called her that? Or did it come from his own head? I think the “little bird” is actually contempt. He told them to “get her back to her cage.” ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/47 "2012-05-07T22:59:31Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > For me, one of the interesting questions raised in this episode is who commands the Hound’s loyalty? He rescues Sansa, and when Tyrion thanks him he says “I didn’t do it for you.” So who _did_ he do it for? Clearly not the Starks. I’m guessing Jamie rather than the Lannisters in general. Unless he really is loyal to Joff in the belief that Joff is Robert Baratheon’s son and heir. > [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > I thought it was obvious that he did it just for Sansa. > [@Shakester](#): > > I’m not seeing a whole lot of empathy in the Hound’s character thus far. It was him who rode down and killed the butcher’s boy (Arya’s fencing buddy) back in season one, for example. > > I suppose it’s possible he has a soft spot in his heart for Sansa, but I’ll wait for more evidence before I decide he’s not such a bad guy after all. Well, like a lot of others, he’s a complex character. So far, he always follows direct orders, but when he has an opportunity to do the right thing on his own volition, he does. I do think he has a soft spot for Sansa after seeing all she’s been through. My guess is that at some point he will become convinced of Joff’s illegitimacy and/or inability to be King, and he either sits back and lets him get killed or maybe even does the deed himself. Though, I don’t think he’ll turn against him until there’s something tangible enough to sway him. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/48 "2012-05-08T02:49:49Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I suppose it’s possible he has a soft spot in his heart for Sansa, but I’ll wait for more evidence before I decide he’s not such a bad guy after all. I don’t see how either of those things relate to each other. It’s unremarkable for a bad guy to have a soft spot for an abused girl. It doesn’t make him not a bad guy; maybe he just finds abusing young girls distasteful. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/49 "2012-05-08T07:16:47Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I don’t see how either of those things relate to each other. It’s unremarkable for a bad guy to have a soft spot for an abused girl. It doesn’t make him not a bad guy; maybe he just finds abusing young girls distasteful. He rode down and killed the butcher’s boy. That, to me, implies that he doesn’t have a soft spot for children in general. Maybe the only people who give a shit about the butcher’s boy are me and Arya. The Hound is on Arya’s shit-list, and I expect, in the fullness of time, that things will turn out badly for the shit-listed. Arya is one of the few characters I’m certain will survive everything and go on to be of major series-long importance. And, whatever else happens, I don’t see her forgiving the butcher’s boy incident. Yes, perhaps the Hound does have some sympathy for Sansa, but he will have to pay for the butcher’s boy at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/50 "2012-05-08T13:27:30Z")
When the Hound went back into (stayed in?) the riot to rescue Sansa, and called her Little Bird, it seemed to me that he has genuine affection for her. He has always struck me as someone who has no illusions about Joffrey, but who takes his duty very seriously and somewhat fatalistically. His role is to be loyal and protective of Joffrey, even though he can see that Joff is a puling, violent sociopath. In fact, I think that’s why he has sympathy for Sansa - he sees someone stuck in a household with a powerful sadist, and he identifies with that from his own childhood. I have to say, I was pretty uncomfortable with the attempted rape scene. I kept thinking “the actress is only 15!” Not cool, IMHO. Hopefully they did some serious prep work on set to reduce the trauma. RE: Theon. The actor is so fabulous. He is presenting that deep insecurity, masked with bravado, just perfectly. The writing is great too - so many little things adding up to send that message, starting with the uncomfortable scene in Bran’s room. A confident, self-assured man would have simply informed Bran, not unkindly, what was up. Maybe even apologetically to some degree. But Theon was like a puppy looking for approval or something. “See, I took the keep. I took it, see? Me!” Sad when 10yo shows you up in the leadership department. I also loved the scene with Rodrik. The moment when Theon looks over Luwin’s shoulder at his first mate, and the guy only has to give a tiny half-shake of his head, and it’s so clear how it’s going to go, and how much Theon is a bitchboy to his crew. Then he can’t even behead someone right. He’s tragic in the sense that if only he’d come down the other way as he held that letter, he could have become a great man, but by trying to please his father and win the approval of people from his home culture, which is alien to him, he becomes pathetic. Another fabulous moment where the director nailed so much with such a small physical attitude was when Littlefinger was talking with Tywin, and there was a shot where it’s Arya’s POV, and Littlefinger is 3/4 profile, looking directly at Tywin, but the angle of the shot is such that you’re just waiting for his eyes to flick ever so slightly to the right and recognize Arya. His eyes never do shift, but as I reflect, I can’t help but feel that in that moment, he had recognized her after all. Great slow burn tension there. If Dany could get so Stockholm-y over Khal Drogo that she’s seriously mourning him, I don’t see why she can’t nut up and marry the super rich, actually quite nice guy who could deliver everything she wants. Actually, I can - she’s still a naive kid, despite all the surviving fires in which she burns her enemy alive and whatnot. It’s frustrating to watch, but also pretty believable. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/51 "2012-05-08T13:34:55Z")
Oh, and Ygritte! Loved her, loved her manipulating Jon. And I was like, “She’s so pretty . . . wait, she’s also familiar . . . Holy shit, it’s Gwen from Downton Abbey!” It’s good to see her again. I guess she chucked the typing gig and hitched a ride to Westeros with Sir Richard Carlisle! ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/52 "2012-05-08T14:21:02Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > He rode down and killed the butcher’s boy. That, to me, implies that he doesn’t have a soft spot for children in general. > > Maybe the only people who give a shit about the butcher’s boy are me and Arya. The Hound is on Arya’s shit-list, and I expect, in the fullness of time, that things will turn out badly for the shit-listed. Arya is one of the few characters I’m certain will survive everything and go on to be of major series-long importance. And, whatever else happens, I don’t see her forgiving the butcher’s boy incident. > > Yes, perhaps the Hound does have some sympathy for Sansa, but he will have to pay for the butcher’s boy at some point. I feel like you’re missing the whole point of the series. There are no black and white good and bad guys in our world or theirs. This isn’t Star Wars, where the bad guys where black masks and capes so you know they are bad guys. This is a world where your survival depends on your loyalty to someone, no matter what they tell you to do. If you’re going to disobey, you need to have a pretty good backup or escape plan. If you want to judge someone, judge them by the actions they take on their own, not by what orders they follow. The Hound has never been cruel in his off time, as far as we’ve seen. Quite the contrary. He’s looked out for Sansa and Loras that we’ve seen. When he killed Mycah, that was under orders from Joffrey. If you think that you could, in his position, refuse such orders and live, you’re fooling yourself. When Varys was going on about power, remember the bit about the king ordering a sellsword to kill? Who is responsible for that death, the sellsword or the king? The temptation is to say both, but that answer is a trap. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/53 "2012-05-08T14:43:47Z")
The Hound returned alone with Micah. He could have easily just told the boy to beat it and told Joffrey/Cersei that he couldn’t find the kid. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/54 "2012-05-08T14:46:13Z")
How often can he fail to complete his mission without jeopardizing himself? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/55 "2012-05-08T14:56:25Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Oh, and Ygritte! Loved her, loved her manipulating Jon. And I was like, “She’s so pretty . . . wait, she’s also familiar . . . **Holy shit, it’s Gwen from Downton Abbey**!” It’s good to see her again. I guess she chucked the typing gig and hitched a ride to Westeros with Sir Richard Carlisle! :smack:I knew I had seen her some place before. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/56 "2012-05-08T15:37:09Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I feel like you’re missing the whole point of the series. There are no black and white good and bad guys in our world or theirs. This isn’t Star Wars, where the bad guys where black masks and capes so you know they are bad guys. This is a world where your survival depends on your loyalty to someone, no matter what they tell you to do. If you’re going to disobey, you need to have a pretty good backup or escape plan. > > If you want to judge someone, judge them by the actions they take on their own, not by what orders they follow. The Hound has never been cruel in his off time, as far as we’ve seen. Quite the contrary. He’s looked out for Sansa and Loras that we’ve seen. When he killed Mycah, that was under orders from Joffrey. If you think that you could, in his position, refuse such orders and live, you’re fooling yourself. > > When Varys was going on about power, remember the bit about the king ordering a sellsword to kill? Who is responsible for that death, the sellsword or the king? The temptation is to say both, but that answer is a trap. There are a few “pure evil” bad guys in the series (Joffrey and Gregor “The Mountain” come to mind), but you’re right in general. But the Hound didn’t have to murder Mycah- even if he was ordered to (he could have captured him and brought him back, beat him up, or something similar- and I doubt he would have been punished). And I like the character. But he is a killer, not just a soldier. The Hound is not a “heart of gold” type, in my opinion… maybe a killer with a heart of mostly iron but a tiny bit of nice, soft gold in there. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/57 "2012-05-08T16:14:20Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I feel like you’re missing the whole point of the series. There are no black and white good and bad guys in our world or theirs. This isn’t Star Wars, where the bad guys where black masks and capes so you know they are bad guys. This is a world where your survival depends on your loyalty to someone, no matter what they tell you to do. If you’re going to disobey, you need to have a pretty good backup or escape plan. > > If you want to judge someone, judge them by the actions they take on their own, not by what orders they follow. The Hound has never been cruel in his off time, as far as we’ve seen. Quite the contrary. He’s looked out for Sansa and Loras that we’ve seen. When he killed Mycah, that was under orders from Joffrey. If you think that you could, in his position, refuse such orders and live, you’re fooling yourself. > > When Varys was going on about power, remember the bit about the king ordering a sellsword to kill? Who is responsible for that death, the sellsword or the king? The temptation is to say both, but that answer is a trap. I think you’re assuming I’m an idiot, and I’m pretty unhappy about that. I understand moral ambiguity perfectly well. Go patronise someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/58 "2012-05-08T17:03:03Z")
The whole point of the series is there are no purely good guys or bad? I’m no expert on the books or the shows. But I can’t really believe that. That may be \*\*one \*\*of the points. But surely the main point is to present an exciting fantasy adventure with incredible visuals and thrilling adult-themed stories. The geographic vistas and the costumes are like nothing I’ve ever seen on TV. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/59 "2012-05-08T17:05:37Z")
Yeah, besides there are plenty of black and white characters on the show. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/60 "2012-05-08T18:23:26Z")
> [@Unauthorized Cinnamon](#): > > When the Hound went back into (stayed in?) the riot to rescue Sansa, and called her Little Bird, it seemed to me that he has genuine affection for her. He has always struck me as someone who has no illusions about Joffrey, but who takes his duty very seriously and somewhat fatalistically. I think this is exactly right. When the Hound said to return Sansa to her “cage”, I realized that the Hound probably feels he is in his own cage - one whose bars are made of _honor_. It’s not honor in the way we might think of it (e.g., we probably all agree that it’s not very honorable to hunt down and kill a butcher’s boy), but it’s definitely a code of honor that he feels bound by. Both he and Sansa are bound to Joffrey, and both wish they were not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100.md?page=4)