# Game of Thrones 2.06 "The Old Gods and the New" 5/6/12 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 6, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100 "2012-05-06T21:10:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/61 "2012-05-08T19:55:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yeah, besides there are plenty of black and white characters on the show. Well, black _skin_ and white _hair._ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/62 "2012-05-08T20:05:42Z")
|| For she’s only a bird in a gilded cage. . . || ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/63 "2012-05-09T04:03:42Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I think you’re assuming I’m an idiot, and I’m pretty unhappy about that. I understand moral ambiguity perfectly well. Go patronise someone else. I don’t know, I got the same impression as **JSexton**. Your skepticism that the Hound could possibly have a soft spot for Sansa is rather “black and white,” especially since my impression up to and through this episode before reading this thread was that he clearly and obviously did. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/64 "2012-05-09T04:10:34Z")
Speaking of Sansa and the Hound, something’s been pointed to me that had flown right over my head both in the series and when I was reading it: she’s just been rescued by a knight in shining armour. Literally. Well, except for the part where the Hound isn’t an actual knight. Still, that’s the sort of thing she’d been dreaming of happening to her all her life, only it turns out the part before the rescuing turns one off the following rescue entirely. Also the rescuer behind horribly disfigured. And, really, the gory rescue itself isn’t all that fun after all. Anyway, just felt the need to point out just another way life’s shitting on poor, annoying Sansa day in, day out. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/65 "2012-05-09T04:58:02Z")
I’ve been fascinated by the Hound for a while now, and am a bit surprised that folks are only noticing him now–there’s lots of little subtle cues that he’s got hidden depths, or at least hidden complexities. Sidelong glances, grimaces, the delivery of his rare lines. I hope to see more made of him. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/66 "2012-05-09T14:31:43Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I think you’re assuming I’m an idiot, and I’m pretty unhappy about that. I understand moral ambiguity perfectly well. Go patronise someone else. I apologize if I came off that way. I don’t think you’re an idiot. I do think you’re wrong, but that’s not the same thing. I mean, you’re right about Arya not being the forgiving sort, and if she gets the opportunity, would gladly slide Needle between his ribs. But so far, have you seen bad guys getting their comeuppance? Have you seen things turning out all right for the good guys in the end? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/67 "2012-05-09T14:43:36Z")
I wonder why the Starks did not send a message to Cersei: “Anything that happens to Sansa and Anya will happen to Jaime.” And everyone talks about “poor Sansa” what about poor Catelyn? Husband is beheaded, her boy Bran is first crippled and now has been captured by Theon, Sansa is in the hands of mad king Joffrey and Anya is nowhere to be seen. That’s what could reasonably be called “a world of hurt.” The only bright spot she has is Jon, who has turned out to be quite the fighter and leader of men. Which means … he’s doomed! ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/68 "2012-05-09T14:51:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > And everyone talks about “poor Sansa” what about poor Catelyn? Husband is beheaded, her boy Bran is first crippled and now has been captured by Theon, Sansa is in the hands of mad king Joffrey and Anya is nowhere to be seen. That’s what could reasonably be called “a world of hurt.” The only bright spot she has is Jon, who has turned out to be quite the fighter and leader of men. Which means … he’s doomed! I think you meant Robb, not Jon. Jon is a bright spot for Cat in that she likely never has to see him again. 😉 Also, much like everyone on the show, you seem to have forgotten Rickon, also captured by Theon. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/69 "2012-05-09T14:57:50Z")
Whoever wins this game of thrones won’t matter because in twenty years or so Rickon is gonna rise up out of nowhere-- a rabid, shapeshifting, sociopath warg whose only purpose is to rip the throat of any who sit on the Iron Throne. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/70 "2012-05-09T15:04:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I wonder why the Starks did not send a message to Cersei: “Anything that happens to Sansa and Anya will happen to Jaime.” … I thought that was pretty well implied, was it not? They don’t have to explicitly _say_ it in a message, although they do have to find out what (if anything) happened to either girl, and they don’t ezzactly have email in their world. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/71 "2012-05-09T15:06:23Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Whoever wins this game of thrones won’t matter because in twenty years or so Rickon is gonna rise up out of nowhere-- a rabid, shapeshifting, sociopath warg whose only purpose is to rip the throat of any who sit on the Iron Throne. He’ll crush their nuts. Foreshadowing! ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/72 "2012-05-09T15:18:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I wonder why the Starks did not send a message to Cersei: “Anything that happens to Sansa and Anya will happen to Jaime.” The honor of the Starks makes such a threat useless. That would be like Jimmy Carter saying to the Ayatollah Khomeini “Anything you do to your hostages, we’re going to do to your Mother!” First of all, everybody knows that he is too honorable to ever follow through, and likewise too honorable to employ anybody who might be ordered to do it for him. In fact, he’s too honorable to even try the bluff, because that would be too much like lying. Likewise the lack of honor on the other side. The only response one could expect from Cersei would be a giggling, “Oh, really? How about _ **this** _. . .” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/73 "2012-05-09T17:03:32Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > The honor of the Starks makes such a threat useless. That would be like Jimmy Carter saying to the Ayatollah Khomeini “Anything you do to your hostages, we’re going to do to your Mother!” First of all, everybody knows that he is too honorable to ever follow through, and likewise too honorable to employ anybody who might be ordered to do it for him. In fact, he’s too honorable to even try the bluff, because that would be too much like lying. > > Likewise the lack of honor on the other side. The only response one could expect from Cersei would be a giggling, “Oh, really? How about _ **this** _. . .” Yeaaaah that was true when Ned was the head of the Starks. Now it’s Cat (well, Robb really, but from the way she just cockblocked him hard just now, you know she’s got the reins) and that woman is erratic and prone to any lengths of retardation when it’s for “the chil’un !!”. Seriously, Cat single-handedly set the North on fire by taking Tyrion prisoner without a shred of evidence, just because “someone tried to kill my kid, fuck all of y’all”. And now she looks like she’s half a breath from selling out her son’s entire side if it gives her half a chance to get her pwecious daughters back. Fuck her. She’s the ultimate obnoxious “Mommy knows best, sweetie”. And it wouldn’t be so bad if she had a brain in her head, but she really doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/74 "2012-05-09T17:09:54Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeaaaah that was true when Ned was the head of the Starks. Now it’s Cat (well, Robb really, but from the way she just cockblocked him hard just now, you know she’s got the reins) and that woman is erratic and prone to any lengths of retardation when it’s for “the chil’un !!”. > Seriously, Cat single-handedly set the North on fire by taking Tyrion prisoner without a shred of evidence, just because “someone tried to kill my kid, fuck all of y’all”. And now she looks like she’s half a breath from selling out her son’s entire side if it gives her half a chance to get her pwecious daughters back. > > Fuck her. She’s the ultimate obnoxious “Mommy knows best, sweetie”. And it wouldn’t be so bad if she had a brain in her head, but she really doesn’t. I agree one hundred percent. Her pinch-faced “I told you so!” to Robb about Theon made me wanna kick her. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/75 "2012-05-09T17:36:27Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > I think you meant Robb, not Jon. Jon is a bright spot for Cat in that she likely never has to see him again. 😉 > > Also, much like everyone on the show, you seem to have forgotten Rickon, also captured by Theon. 🙂 Yes and yes. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/76 "2012-05-09T17:39:22Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > I thought that was pretty well implied, was it not? They don’t have to explicitly _say_ it in a message, although they do have to find out what (if anything) happened to either girl, and they don’t ezzactly have email in their world. Well they kinda DO have to say the message, apparently, because we’ve seen Joffrey torturing Sansa. He might kill her, he’s kind of a nut. Jaime is Cersei’s lover, she’s gonna hurt a lot of he gets hurt, having her explicitly KNOW her lover will suffer horribly if Sansa does, might just motivate her to make some effort to protect her. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/77 "2012-05-09T17:47:39Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > The honor of the Starks makes such a threat useless. That would be like Jimmy Carter saying to the Ayatollah Khomeini “Anything you do to your hostages, we’re going to do to your Mother!” First of all, everybody knows that he is too honorable to ever follow through, and likewise too honorable to employ anybody who might be ordered to do it for him. In fact, he’s too honorable to even try the bluff, because that would be too much like lying. > > Likewise the lack of honor on the other side. The only response one could expect from Cersei would be a giggling, “Oh, really? How about _ **this** _. . .” I don’t see Cersei risking Jaime’s ass that way. She loves him. JOFFREY might take that approach. The Stark’s only hope is to play on Cersei’s desire to protect Jaime and keep Joffrey from making another mistake. And as I said, there’s an obvioius need for the Starks to make things real clear to Cersei. Tyrion, of course, gets it immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/78 "2012-05-09T17:49:20Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I agree one hundred percent. Her pinch-faced “I told you so!” to Robb about Theon made me wanna kick her. Considering all that has happened to her, I give her a pass. She’s in a bad place. It would be nice if she were smarter, but all things considered, she’s doing OK. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/79 "2012-05-09T17:52:30Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > The honor of the Starks makes such a threat useless. I doubt that treating Jaime (their hostage) badly would be considered dishonorable if the Lannisters treat Soraya (their hostage) badly in the Game of Thrones universe. I suspect it would be considered fair. Remember, in the very first episode the honorable Ned Stark beheaded someone who was not far out of boyhood for cowardice, even though he believed his victim’s story. That’s not honorable or fair in my book, but there is a ifferent set of morals in operation in Ned’s world.. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/80 "2012-05-09T17:56:23Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well they kinda DO have to say the message, apparently, because we’ve seen Joffrey torturing Sansa. He might kill her, he’s kind of a nut. Jaime is Cersei’s lover, she’s gonna hurt a lot of he gets hurt, having her explicitly KNOW her lover will suffer horribly if Sansa does, might just motivate her to make some effort to protect her. Joffrey is an idiot and he’s also a minor and a sociopath. There’s no message there for him. As for Cersei, she obviously already knows. She isn’t going to let Sansa be killed. But a little humiliation within the confines of the court? Those details are unlikely to find their way to the Starks while Sansa is still in custody; and, anyway, she probably assumes that (1) Jaime is already being treated as badly as the Starks are capable of and (2) word of a little humiliation here or there isn’t going to change that. Furthermore, Cersei’s in a bit of a precarious position herself. Officially, she’s the regent, but it’s obvious that she doesn’t have a very strong grip on power, since Joffrey’s able to threaten her as well as execute important decisions without her knowledge. Tyrion’s behaviour establishes adequately that the Lannisters as a group already know that it’s in their interest to make sure that no serious harm comes to Sansa while Jaime is in the Starks’ custody. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100.md?page=5)