# Game of Thrones 2.06 "The Old Gods and the New" 5/6/12 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 6, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100 "2012-05-06T21:10:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/101 "2012-05-09T19:48:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Of course there is - Robb is a teenaged kid who barely knows anything about anything and gets browbeaten by anyone with a pulse. Ned knows this, and he knows he’s not ready to rule a cheese sandwich. Which is why the Frey manage to bargain a wedding out of him, why his bannermen don’t respect him (or at least didn’t before he proved himself) and why Cat thinks it’s no big to tell him what to do nor stand in the way of the King in the North’s cock. > He’s just not ready to lead. Not intellectually, and not err… reputationally ? So… who should Ned have left in charge then? Whatever faults Robb may have, he’s Ned’s oldest son. By the norms of Westeros, that’s who you leave in charge when you leave. And that’s who gets to be Lord of the castle when you get your head chopped off in the capitol. Who else? Hodor? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/102 "2012-05-09T19:57:50Z")
Actually “Hawking” works better. In the sense of a Carnival “Hawker” who stands outside the special show tents and tries to get folks to buy tickets to see the sideshows. “Hocking” is handing and item over as collateral for a loan, then hopefully buying it back when your ship comes in. I think Cersei loves her children in the way that true narcissists do; they are pieces of herself, and therefore worthy of worship. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/103 "2012-05-09T19:57:58Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > So… who should Ned have left in charge then? Ned should have stayed in Winterfell. Why the fuck should he care that Robert’s son isn’t really his son, when it comes right down to it ? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/104 "2012-05-09T20:05:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But the King asks it, and you do what the King tells you, period. > > And I mean, you see Ned doing things that he \*knows \*can’t come out good for anyone, but are expected of him, so he does them. Things like telling Arya to just stick with the program, or leaving Robb in charge of the North. Or marrying off Sansa to Epic Fuckwad. I disagree. He doesn’t do these things just because he’s told to do them, but also because he believes that he’s doing the right thing, even if the consequences might be unpleasant for him. Remember, Robert had to persuade him to accept the position as hand. And he wasn’t as sure of Joffrey being of poor character until after the betrothal. By that time, he was in a pickle, and he eventually did move to oppose Joffrey and get Sansa away from King’s Landing. Don’t forget that it was Sansa that was at least partly responsible for foiling that plan. Before Robert’s death, being the future queen was in Sansa’s best interests, so far as he could tell. Things changed, and he eventually did move to act, and he did so in the way that he believed he should act. Of course, he did essentially forge Robert’s signature on that letter. Ned isn’t a clock-watching automaton. He does what he believes is right. It might take him longer than the viewing audience to realize that he’s mistaken, but he does use his own values and reason. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/105 "2012-05-09T20:06:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, I sort of got that. Her pleading at the gates carried the same “out of her depths” dimension. Still, what the fuck was up with her eyebrows this time, man ? 😕😛 I thought she did an amazing job. To me, she was channeling Viserys really really well in that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/106 "2012-05-09T20:07:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ned should have stayed in Winterfell. Why the fuck should he care that Robert’s son isn’t really his son, when it comes right down to it ? Because he doesn’t want his best friend to be murdered? Because he has loyalty to the man he grew up with and fought with? Because he doesn’t want a Lannsiter to be Hand of the King? Because he doesn’t think the right thing is always pleasant or easy? Because while he’d prefer staying in the North he thinks that southern experience will lead to a better life for his daughters? How is Robb always brow-beaten? Like when he told a giant fucking crazy man that Robb would kill him? Like when he goes against the advice of his strategists in order to plan a risky sneak attack? How does Ned always do what the king says, when he repeatedly doesn’t? When he fought a war against a king? Ned also breaks off Sansa’s engagement to Joffrey, if you recall. I disagree with you on pretty much everything about Ned. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/107 "2012-05-09T20:08:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ned should have stayed in Winterfell. Why the fuck should he care that Robert’s son isn’t really his son, when it comes right down to it ? Because Ned was the only person in Westros who wasn’t a dick. He was stupid but he wasn’t a dick. I could see him reasoning, “Lemme serve the cause of justice by spilling my plans to my enemy like I’m a James Bond villian. Yeah, that’s the ticket.” ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/108 "2012-05-09T20:15:44Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Because Ned was the only person in Westros who wasn’t a dick. He was stupid but he wasn’t a dick. I could see him reasoning, “Lemme serve the cause of justice by spilling my plans to my enemy like I’m a James Bond villian. Yeah, that’s the ticket.” Ned gets a lot of shit for this, but I really don’t think it’s quite that bad. If Robert was slightly less drunk, didn’t find a boar, got lucky in killing the boar, got slightly less gored by the boar, got too drunk and passed out, etc. etc. etc. then Ned’s plan goes off without a hitch. Cersei’s entire plan rests on a professional alcoholic getting unlucky and dying while doing something he does all the time. Ned’s dumber actions take place after Robert returns. If he’d taken Arya, Sansa, and fled after Robert was injured then everything would have worked out. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/109 "2012-05-09T20:19:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Of course there is - Robb is a teenaged kid who barely knows anything about anything and gets browbeaten by anyone with a pulse. Ned knows this, and he knows he’s not ready to rule a cheese sandwich. People are expected to grow up fast in that society. He took Bran to witness an execution, because “he’ll be a man soon.” > [@](#): > > Nope, but he didn’t know Joffrey\* wasn’t \*a sociopath either. He’s never met the kid. Even in societies where arranged marriages are the norm, you’re supposed to be familiar with the person you’re hawking your daughter to, and their family. You’re not expected to investigate the characters and personalities of each person. Their positions and reputations are what you need to know. Joffrey’s father is not only the king, but Ned’s best friend. There’s not much more to know. No one was expecting Joffrey to be a sadist. > [@](#): > > I loathe the medieval heroes GoT foists on us and tells us to like 😛 There’s your mistake. Game of Thrones isn’t telling you to like anyone. It’s presenting everyone with all their flaws. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Ned should have stayed in Winterfell. Why the fuck should he care that Robert’s son isn’t really his son, when it comes right down to it ? Remember he went to Winterfell to find out what was going on with Jon Arryn and to help his friend and his king run the country. Those are not insignificant goals. This is not a world where taking your kid to soccer practice is the highest responsibility of a parent. People die when things go to hell, lots of them. And Ned was, so far as anyone knew, one of the most capable men in the kingdom. Staying home with his wife and children is not what his people need him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/110 "2012-05-09T20:31:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I disagree. He doesn’t do these things just because he’s told to do them, but also because he believes that he’s doing the right thing, even if the consequences might be unpleasant for him. How is that incompatible with doing things because the rules say you gotta do these things ? Let me rephrase that: how is that incompatible with doing things because he believes doing things strictly by the rules, no matter how retarded, is said to be the right thing ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/111 "2012-05-09T20:37:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There’s your mistake. Game of Thrones isn’t telling you to like anyone. It’s presenting everyone with all their flaws. Yes and no. GRRM clearly sets up a universe where everyone is a dick, but there are still “modern heroes” that emerge nonetheless. Jon, Arya, Tyrion, even Dany and the Hound are modern heroes depending on how you squint. Of course they’re flawed - but the modern hero is flawed too, because we’ve grown past the ideal of the flawless knight in shining armour. Batman is the posterboy for nazi dicks, Ironman is an alcoholic egomaniac - they’re still portrayed as heroes. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/112 "2012-05-09T20:41:11Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Anyone notice that Cat didn’t introduce Brienne to Robb? Seemed a little odd. “Welcome home, Mom… and say, who’s this remarkably large and ugly armored woman with you?” I wondered about that, but then decided that Cat hadn’t just arrived at the camp – she’s been back for awhile. Otherwise, their conversation would have covered more than just “Who’s that chick, stay away from her, you’re promised to an ugly Frey”. Because Cat would have definitely introduced her. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/113 "2012-05-09T20:43:02Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Ned gets a lot of shit for this, but I really don’t think it’s quite that bad. If Robert was slightly less drunk, didn’t find a boar, got lucky in killing the boar, got slightly less gored by the boar, got too drunk and passed out, etc. etc. etc. then Ned’s plan goes off without a hitch. Cersei’s entire plan rests on a professional alcoholic getting unlucky and dying while doing something he does all the time. Not sure this comes out as clearly in the series as it does in the book, but Cersei didn’t content herself with assuming her husband would be drunk enough for the boar to kill him someday. She was in bed (possibly literally) with Lancel, Robert’s cupbearer, to make sure that he not only would get copious amounts of wine whenever he asked, but that the wine would be strong stuff. I get the feeling it wasn’t the first time, either. Not even the king can beat the stats on drunk [del]driving[/del] boar hunting. (not that hunting boars with a spear isn’t incredibly dangerous in and of itself - wild pigs are mean motherfuckers) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/114 "2012-05-10T02:52:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Cat single-handedly set the North on fire by taking Tyrion prisoner without a shred of evidence The assassin, who was caught in the act and killed, was wielding Tyrion’s knife. That’s not airtight, I agree, and stunk of a set-up job, but it’s a far cry from “without a shred of evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/115 "2012-05-10T06:29:51Z")
For some reason, the way Cat treated Jon Snow was worse to me than almost all the other character flaws on the show, and it’s hard to view her sympathetically. Just the way she sent utter hate beams of doom his way every time she was within a mile of him, and he’s such a good kid that did nothing at all wrong. I can overlook Jamie Lannister pushing a kid out a window easier than I can overlook her 18 years of burning hatred for a kid she raised. Hard for her to be redeemed after that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/116 "2012-05-10T08:27:31Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The assassin, who was caught in the act and killed, was wielding Tyrion’s knife. That’s not airtight, I agree, and stunk of a set-up job, but it’s a far cry from “without a shred of evidence.” First, as evidence goes it’s pretty damn circumstantial. Second, who the fuck knows if it’s really Tyrion’s knife ? The only one to say so was Littlefinger, who isn’t exactly the least devious of motherfuckers. But without checking anything, or asking anyone else, she takes it upon herself to start a whole blood feud because one dude said it was totes the Lannisters who did it. Which, admittedly, they most probably did (I’m guessing Tywin gave the order himself). Still, from her POV it was a rash, stupid and unjust thing to do ; one that nearly got them both killed and one that led Tywin to unleash the Mountain to rape, burn, loot from and torture the very peasants she’s \*supposed \*to be protecting (not to mention put her husband and daughters in a very precarious position). And of course it eventually triggered a fucking world war. But it’s for the chil’un !! ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/117 "2012-05-10T09:44:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > First, as evidence goes it’s pretty damn circumstantial. Again, it’s evidence. It’s not “not a shred of evidence/” > [@](#): > > Second, who the fuck knows if it’s really Tyrion’s knife ? The only one to say so was Littlefinger, who isn’t exactly the least devious of motherfuckers. You mean other than the fact that Tyrion admitted it was his? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/118 "2012-05-10T12:06:25Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You mean other than the fact that Tyrion admitted it was his? He never did. Not when she arrested him (he just entered the tavern, recognized her and said hello, that was enough for her to lose her shit), and not on the road either. All he says is “What kind of imbecile would arm an assassin with his own blade ?”, but that’s not an admission of ownership - it’s one of them rhetorical questions. It’s also an objection more compelling to the accusation than simply protesting “yo, that shit ain’t even mine !” because Cat would naturally assume him to be lying. By appealing to inductive reasoning instead, without denying nor confirming her statements, he had a much better chance of coming through to her. Or would have if she had a brain. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/119 "2012-05-10T15:46:40Z")
I have to say that I felt the opening scene, with Theon taking the castle, was underwhelming. It happened so fast without us seeing any part of it - and just the idea that Theon and his dozen guys could take the castle without struggle is underwhelming. Feels like they could’ve shown a clever plan being pushed into action (maybe Theon’s knowledge of the castle formulating a plan where they could take out some of the remaining guards quietly), but wasted the opportunity. It almost feels like you’ve missed a scene when the episode starts. Plus with so few men, it seems like even the Dire Wolves could’ve fought them off. Oh well. Otherwise, Theon having to face the consequences of his little stunt were good scenes. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100/120 "2012-05-10T15:51:32Z")
Another thought. I wonder if Tywin realizes who Arya is - all of the questioning about her family and ability to read - and intends to use her as a double agent of sorts. Leave notes about their plans out on purpose - see if she snatches them up and finds a way to get them back to Robb - and use those as a way to send misinformation. That’d be clever, and Tywin Lannister is a boss. I have a growing appreciation for the acting of the guy who plays Theon. His pride mixed with the slow realizaton that he’s in way over his head is perfectly played. In general, he’s giving a surprising amount of depth to a douchebag. I can’t find a single casting complaint to make about this show, aside possibly from Littlefinger - this has to be the best cast in the history of television. Dozens of characters, and all of them perfectly cast. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-06-the-old-gods-and-the-new-5-6-12-no-book-spoilers/621100.md?page=7)