# Game of Thrones 2.08 "The Prince of Winterfell" 5/20 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 20, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528 "2012-05-20T17:47:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/101 "2012-05-23T13:13:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What does Robb plan to do about the whole Theon in Winterfell business? He is a King without a country as it stands and sending some guys illegitimate son is not helping. Why would it not help? Theon is holding Winterfell with a very small contingent of men and he will not have the backing of any of the smallfolk or the rest of the Iron Island men. Sending a, what do they call them?, regiment is exactly what he should do. The only difference is Robb isn’t going himself. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/102 "2012-05-23T13:19:07Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Dany exhibited dragony heat immunity before she even met the Dothraki. There was nothing but petrified dragon eggs in the world when the witch doctor described the half-dragon fetus, so why would she think to make up that lie specifically? Honestly, when I heard her “the baby had scales like a snake, wings like a bat, and he was full of grave worms” spiel, my mind didn’t go to dragon baby. Rather, I thought “Demon !”. As for why she would think to make up that lie: she wanted to kick Dany in the ovaries, hard. Telling her “yeah, yer babby’s dead. Who’s powerful now ?!” wasn’t enough, she had to pile the horrible on. And she’s an old crone midwife, the medieval equivalent of a tabloid newspaper. Baby born with goat’s head and snake tail ! > [@](#): > > I could get behind the idea that the death magic sucked the life out of the fetus, though remember they used a horse as well so I don’t think a lack of life force to draw from is sufficient to explain Khal’s brain-dead result. I think the horse wasn’t part of the bargain per se - either it was a burnt offering for whatever bad juju spirit Mirri brought forth (his 10%, as it were) or the horse blood splashing on Drogo & Dany both was necessary as a conduit for the life force to transfer, something like that. I don’t believe Drogo got a chunk of horse life. That said, IANANecromancer 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/103 "2012-05-23T14:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The Targaryn tendency to inbreed can be just as easily explained as their preserving the throne by keeping within their own tribe than a genetic incompatibility with other humans. And, while they sometimes married their sibs–that wasn’t always the case. They also married outside the family. Perhaps to gain alliances–per Westeros custom. I think Dany’s got powers that link her to the dragons. (Thanks to Arya for the history lesson on the Targaryan conquerors–who rode dragons.) But I don’t think any Targaryans actually mated with them–that planet’s genetics are not our Earth genetics, but they are not _that_ different! Dany’s future fertility? Her pregnancy ended in a most difficult manner. But she also seems unwilling to enter into another marriage–her first began bad, got better (through her efforts) & then ended badly. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/104 "2012-05-23T15:16:10Z")
> [@Stowed\_Bob](#): > > There’s every reason to believe death magic had to do with it. Not the dragon-form part. > [@](#): > > Her unborn child had to die for Drogo to live, that was the price. The horse whose throat they slit in sacrifice was the price for Drogo’s life. Dany’s baby may have been collateral damage, but I maintain that to the extent the death magic effected the baby, it would only have been its death. Its form had to have come from Dany, who herself has displayed dragon traits. It seems illogical to me to think that the dragon form _didn’t_ come from the dragon mother, but instead came from some random voodoo lady. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/105 "2012-05-23T15:18:23Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > (Thanks to Arya for the history lesson on the Targaryan conquerors–who rode dragons.) But I don’t think any Targaryans actually mated with them–that planet’s genetics are not our Earth genetics, but they are not _that_ different! I came up with a theory last night, partly based on \*\*Ellis Dee’\*\*s one. First, I thought about Viserys’ tale of the Iron Throne room back in the days of the Mad King. He said there were dragon skulls lining the hall, ordered chronologically, and his father would walk with him down the aisles and make him learn their names, not entirely unlike Rickon and Arya were made to learn the names, emblems and mottoes of the families of Westeros. When I pictured that scene I thought: that’s some weird, and cool, portrait gallery. Then I thought about him saying his ancestors rode dragons, and Arya saying the same thing, and I remembered some Voodoo trivia. Namely that in Vodun, sometimes the witch doctors let the Loa “ride” them, in a kind of wilful possession. So what if by “riding dragons”, the legends actually meant it that way ? That the Targaeryen conquerors didn’t so much ride dragons as in saddle and spurs, but more as in moving their consciousness into the dragons (or perhaps even the idea, the concept of a dragon and thereby giving it a material form ?) until they completely lost themselves and fused with the dragon permanently ? Hence the portrait gallery from hell, which would not so much be “here are famous dragons” but “here’s which one your great granddaddy became” ? IOW, it wouldn’t be that Dany is half-dragon by birth, has dragon genes or anything like that - more that she’d be slowly \*becoming \*a dragon. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/106 "2012-05-23T15:33:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Then I thought about him saying his ancestors rode dragons, and Arya saying the same thing, and I remembered some Voodoo trivia. Namely that in Vodun, sometimes the witch doctors let the Loa “ride” them, in a kind of wilful possession. > > So what if by “riding dragons”, the legends actually meant it that way ? That the Targaeryen conquerors didn’t so much ride dragons as in saddle and spurs, but more as in moving their consciousness into the dragons (or perhaps even the idea, the concept of a dragon and thereby giving it a material form ?) until they completely lost themselves and fused with the dragon permanently ? Hence the portrait gallery from hell, which would not so much be “here are famous dragons” but “here’s which one your great granddaddy became” ? :eek: like a “no man of woman born” word-screw (but better). I haven’t heard this theory before but I like. Heck, I LOVE it. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/107 "2012-05-23T15:57:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I came up with a theory last night, partly based on \*\*Ellis Dee’\*\*s one. > > First, I thought about Viserys’ tale of the Iron Throne room back in the days of the Mad King. He said there were dragon skulls lining the hall, ordered chronologically, and his father would walk with him down the aisles and make him learn their names, not entirely unlike Rickon and Arya were made to learn the names, emblems and mottoes of the families of Westeros. When I pictured that scene I thought: that’s some weird, and cool, portrait gallery. > > Then I thought about him saying his ancestors rode dragons, and Arya saying the same thing, and I remembered some Voodoo trivia. Namely that in Vodun, sometimes the witch doctors let the Loa “ride” them, in a kind of wilful possession. > > So what if by “riding dragons”, the legends actually meant it that way ? That the Targaeryen conquerors didn’t so much ride dragons as in saddle and spurs, but more as in moving their consciousness into the dragons (or perhaps even the idea, the concept of a dragon and thereby giving it a material form ?) until they completely lost themselves and fused with the dragon permanently ? Hence the portrait gallery from hell, which would not so much be “here are famous dragons” but “here’s which one your great granddaddy became” ? > > IOW, it wouldn’t be that Dany is half-dragon by birth, has dragon genes or anything like that - more that she’d be slowly \*becoming \*a dragon. Interesting. And it’s worth noting that Bran appears to be “riding” his wolf in this sense while he’s dreaming! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/108 "2012-05-23T16:07:55Z")
What’s kind of interesting is how all the major Houses have animals as their sigils: Stark is a Direwolf, Baratheon is a stag, Lannister is a Lion, Arryn is a Falcon, Targaryen is a Dragon, Greyjoy is a Kraken, and Tully I beleive is a trout. Most of the lesser houses do not have animals. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/109 "2012-05-23T16:29:13Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > What’s kind of interesting is how all the major Houses have animals as their sigils: Stark is a Direwolf, Baratheon is a stag, Lannister is a Lion, Arryn is a Falcon, Targaryen is a Dragon, Greyjoy is a Kraken, and Tully I beleive is a trout. Most of the lesser houses do not have animals. I’ve been thinking about that too, and the parallels each House has with their sigil: the Starks of course have their dire wolf pets, but besides that the wolf is a symbol of wildness, which resonates both with Ned’s refusal to play “the game” (i.e. civilization), the Starks’ quick temper, and a general tendency to act upon instincts and gut feelings over carefully pondered actions. Dany… we just went over that (also the Mad King’s last words: “Burn them all”). I don’t know that much about medieval Anglo-American culture, but in France the stag is a symbol of fertility (notably, where you lot say “hung like a horse” we say “hung like a stag”) and Robert certainly did a lot of fucking. Stannis kills people with his dick, too. As for Renly, he went full stag. The Lannister lion, well, lions are symbols of pride and gods know the Lannisters have enough of that to go around. The lion’s mane has also sometimes been equated with fire, which itself is a symbol for umpteen things (semiology is dead easy, guys ! Everything links to everything :p) but mostly I was thinking of the alchemists’ fire pots. Arryns, the falcon, well falcons are known for their keen eyesight, noticing minute details others miss - and Jon Arryn figured out the whole incest thing on his own with no outside help. Clever of him. Then there’s the whole Aeries shtick, the open air cells, the Moon Gate… The Boltons are easier: sigil, a flayed man. They flay the shit out of people. That’s about it. The Greyjoys have their kraken/squid, which ties with the fact their power lies in the sea and their ability to terrorize the coasts with their boats, but Theon is also reminiscent of the octopus as a figure of deviousness, deception, betrayal, not being what he seems etc… Which leaves the Tullys. Honestly, they should have chosen a better totem. No matter the fantasy world, fish powers are gonna suck. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/110 "2012-05-23T17:09:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which leaves the Tullys. Honestly, they should have chosen a better totem. No matter the fantasy world, fish powers are gonna suck. My guess is they were late to the party and all the good sigils were taken. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/111 "2012-05-23T17:24:26Z")
Nothing wrong with a fish. Since the Tullys’ main industry is fishing, it makes sense. Also consider what a fish goes through. Of millions of eggs, only a few survive from larva to fry. Most of the fry are eaten by fish, birds, and other animals. Some fish, such as the salmon (which is related to trout) swim out into the ocean and then have to fight their way against the current, past bears and raptors, to get to their breeding areas. Throughout their lives, fish are beset by predators. But they persevere. So choosing a fish for a sigil not only represents the livelihood of the Tullys’ realm, it’s also an indication that the family will survive against all odds. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/112 "2012-05-23T17:29:45Z")
Wait, who are the Tullys? Have we met any so far in this series? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/113 "2012-05-23T17:37:03Z")
Catelyn and her crazy sister are Tullys. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/114 "2012-05-23T17:37:23Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Wait, who are the Tullys? Have we met any so far in this series? [House Tully](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_houses_in_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire#House_Tully). Eddard Stark married Catelyn Tully, and she bore his children (except for Jon). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/115 "2012-05-23T17:40:28Z")
Lords and Ladies of Riverrun ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/116 "2012-05-23T17:45:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Also consider what a fish goes through. Of millions of eggs, only a few survive from larva to fry. Most of the fry are eaten by fish, birds, and other animals. Some fish, such as the salmon (which is related to trout) swim out into the ocean and then have to fight their way against the current, past bears and raptors, to get to their breeding areas. Throughout their lives, fish are beset by predators. But they persevere. You could say the same about any animal. No one gets a free ride in nature. Except barnacles. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/117 "2012-05-23T18:00:11Z")
A nitpick: the Boltons aren’t a great house, just one of the more prominent bannermen to the Starks. The Tyrell sigil is a rose (or some other flower) so not all the main houses have animals. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/118 "2012-05-23T18:02:39Z")
See, I live in the Pacific Northwest where fish (primarily salmon) are traditionally revered. The salmon is a symbol of determination, strength, and perseverance. Sure, other animals fight to survive; but many cultures see fish as something special. To the local aboriginal people, they are spirit guides and life. To Christians fish are symbols of their Saviour. There’s the old saying about giving a man to fish, or teaching him to fish. Nobody says, ‘Give a man a vole…’ ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/119 "2012-05-23T18:07:14Z")
The Tullys have a fish because they rule the riverlands. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528/120 "2012-05-23T19:52:25Z")
The poor Tullys-- the Aquamen of Westeros. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-08-the-prince-of-winterfell-5-20-no-book-spoilers/622528.md?page=7)