# Game of Thrones 2.09 "Blackwater" 5/27/12 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266 "2012-05-27T18:36:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/41 "2012-05-28T08:54:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Other than the fact that they don’t have him, you mean ? 🙂 Those were his own men dragging Stannis back to the boats, kicking and screaming because he wanted to keep on lopping heads. Like a boss. I wasn’t sure about that, and it did occur to me that they were Stannis’ men, but that doesn’t mean he’ll escape. With things looking the way they do, getting Stannis out of the city, onto a boat, and away free and clear looks a _lot_ less likely than Stannis getting captured. Which isn’t to say that Stannis definitely won’t escape, just that if he does I’ll be wanting a better plotted reason than plain dumb luck. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/42 "2012-05-28T09:10:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes, I know that. But before that he was in Renly’s camp, which happened to oppose the Lannisters (as well as Stannis). So he did flip. Loras was loyal to Renly. With Renly dead, that loyalty is finished. That means Loras can join any side he wishes _except_ for Renly’s killers without being accused of changing sides. If your side goes out of business, then picking a new side is not disloyalty, it’s exactly what a knight _has to_ do. You can be loyal to dead man, but you can’t\* be loyal to a dead _cause_, and Renly’s _cause_ died with Renly. Therefore; no side to be on, and no side to be disloyal to. \*Unless you are batshit insane, which is always possible in the real world and in fictional worlds, but we’re operating on the assumption that Loras is _not_ batshit insane. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Loras never personally had a problem with Stannis either, before Stannis killed Renly. Which doesn’t mean he wasn’t fully prepared to murder him and anybody looks like him. No, a knight will kill a man in battle with honour, he won’t _murder_ anyone. I think we can safely assume that Loras is an honourable knight. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/43 "2012-05-28T09:52:56Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Loras was loyal to Renly. With Renly dead, that loyalty is finished. That means Loras can join any side he wishes _except_ for Renly’s killers without being accused of changing sides. > > If your side goes out of business, then picking a new side is not disloyalty, it’s exactly what a knight _has to_ do. You can be loyal to dead man, but you can’t\* be loyal to a dead _cause_, and Renly’s _cause_ died with Renly. Therefore; no side to be on, and no side to be disloyal to. He could have dropped the war business and focused on private revenge, 47 Ronins style, though. Hell, he could have marched straight into Stannis’ camp and demanded a duel. That would have been knightly and romantic too. But fundamentally, I believe you’re thinking about this solely from Loras’ perspective, which while valid is not necessarily the best P.O.V. to assess shifting allegiances. I mean, a guy could sell nuclear secrets to the Russians with the best, most altruistic intentions and what he believes is the best interest of all mankind at heart ; he’s still a spy, right ? Look at Loras’ actions from other, less partial perspectives: from the Lannisters he was an enemy, now he’s an ally. From the Starks he’s the liege of a guy who was more or less allied with Robb for a common, worthy cause ; who’s now turned his back on it and joined their mutual, sworn enemy. From Stannis’ admittedly askew perspective, he’s a guy who swore allegiance to Renly Baratheon, hence to House Baratheon no matter who runs it, and as such should have joined him like every other bannerman of Renly’s. But really, it’s just a minor point of contention. We can agree to disagree on this, and focus on how fucking awesome that green 'splosion was instead 😃 > [@](#): > > No, a knight will kill a man in battle with honour, he won’t _murder_ anyone. I think we can safely assume that Loras is an honourable knight. Manner of speaking, manner of speaking. I meant murder as in “make very dead” (which, no matter the reason, I would be hard pressed not to take a little bit personally if someone wanted to do to me), not in a dagger in the back sense - not that I ever really was one to establish distinctions between “killing” and “murdering”. Dead’s dead. Plus when you’re as good as Loras is with a lance, “in battle with honour” doesn’t give the other guy much more of a chance, does it ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/44 "2012-05-28T09:59:26Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I wasn’t sure about that, and it did occur to me that they were Stannis’ men, but that doesn’t mean he’ll escape. > > With things looking the way they do, getting Stannis out of the city, onto a boat, and away free and clear looks a _lot_ less likely than Stannis getting captured. > > Which isn’t to say that Stannis definitely won’t escape, just that if he does I’ll be wanting a better plotted reason than plain dumb luck. Well, once he accepts that retreat is necessary, I wouldn’t put it past Stannis to just carve a bloody swath in a straight line to the nearest boat. He might fight like a suicidal lunatic, but that seems to work for him 🙂 Or he could slink into the same tunnels Tyrion used: he’s apparently familiar with King’s Landing, and even if the Lannisters thought to look for him down there at all that’s still 50 miles of catacombs to comb through, leaving him plenty of time to sneak back out when the heat has died down a bit and most of Tywin’s forces have fucked off to meet Robb. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/45 "2012-05-28T10:26:31Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > As for Tyrion, that whole plan to go outside the gate was pretty dumb, as was taking off and not putting back on his helmet. > > And if he expected them to attack at that gate, why didn’t he have better defenses to protect it? If they couldn’t repel the men breaking down the gate, they’d have been better off just opening the damn gate and fighting everyone that tried to come through the bottleneck. > > It’s not like he knew that his father’s army would come to the rescue at the last second, so they would have busted through the door eventually. So why go outside the gate to fight a superior force with no advantage? Either wait for them to bust the gate and hope to thin them out in the meanwhile, or just open it and defend them at the bottleneck if you’re in such a hurry to fight it out. Tyrion’s plan was i) use the “greek fire” to destroy as many of Stannis’s ships in the harbour. ii) Employ his land forces to engage the guys who got on shore iii) use the tunnels to outflank them if it seems that they were about to break through. As it was the battle went pretty much according to plan. Note they did destroy the guys who were with the Rams, and pretty much won the battle then. If they had permitted Stannis to break in, well Stannis would have a foothold in Kings landing and that would be difficult to dislodge. If Stannis gets a foothold, he can reinforce it at his discretion and while the troops in the breach will experience hell on…(?)Westros(?) they battle would he his. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/46 "2012-05-28T11:03:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But really, it’s just a minor point of contention. We can agree to disagree on this, and focus on how fucking awesome that green 'splosion was instead 😃 Deal. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/47 "2012-05-28T11:43:23Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > My guess is Cersei. We saw Mandon with Cersei last week, and she vowed revenge for Tyrion sending Myrcella away. That makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/48 "2012-05-28T13:02:02Z")
I thought it was left hanging whether Sansa would go along. Perhaps I missed something. > [@Kobal2](#): > > But fundamentally, I believe you’re thinking about this solely from Loras’ perspective, which while valid is not necessarily the best P.O.V. to assess shifting allegiances. When you use a term like “turncoat,” you have to look at it from that perspective. So far as Loras is concerned, the cause/nation that he formerly supported no longer exists. He has no coat to turn. He’s entirely free to choose any side. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/49 "2012-05-28T13:12:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Last scene, when Cersei is about to do something very, very stupid and the doors to the throne room swing open to reveal the “good guys”, powerwalking in to announce that the battle is won. The first face we see is that of Ser Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, formerly Renly’s boy toy. Still no bell ? He won the big tournament while Robert was still alive and almost got bisected by the Mountain for his trouble ? Thanks much. I was confused by the turncoat thing, and figured I missed a scene altogether or maybe didn’t know who Ser Loras was. For Loras to be a turncoat he’d have to turn against Renly. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/50 "2012-05-28T13:14:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I thought it was left hanging whether Sansa would go along. Perhaps I missed something. That’s how it looked to me, too. Given Sansa’s options: 1. Stick around, and; a) Lannisters win, marry Joffery, or b) Stannis wins, get raped to death (or) 2. Try your luck with the Hound and hope you can get back to the North in one piece and possibly still a virgin. You can see how option 2 might seem the best bet to Sansa at that point. > [@Acsenray](#): > > When you use a term like “turncoat,” you have to look at it from that perspective. So far as Loras is concerned, the cause/nation that he formerly supported no longer exists. He has no coat to turn. He’s entirely free to choose any side. Yes, that’s what I was saying. Loras’ vow of loyalty ended with Renley’s death, from that point on he was a free agent. Since there is no “House of Renley” there is nothing to be loyal _to_ once Renley himself is dead. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/51 "2012-05-28T13:45:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Tyrion’s plan was > > i) use the “greek fire” to destroy as many of Stannis’s ships in the harbour. > > ii) Employ his land forces to engage the guys who got on shore > > iii) use the tunnels to outflank them if it seems that they were about to break through. > > As it was the battle went pretty much according to plan. Note they did destroy the guys who were with the Rams, and pretty much won the battle then. > > If they had permitted Stannis to break in, well Stannis would have a foothold in Kings landing and that would be difficult to dislodge. If Stannis gets a foothold, he can reinforce it at his discretion and while the troops in the breach will experience hell on…(?)Westros(?) they battle would he his. Actually the battle was pretty much lost until Tywin and the Tyrells came riding in, Tyrion managed to kill the few guys who were banging at the gate but then hundreds or thousands more came charging in. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/52 "2012-05-28T14:02:12Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Actually the battle was pretty much lost until Tywin and the Tyrells came riding in, Tyrion managed to kill the few guys who were banging at the gate but then hundreds or thousands more came charging in. I thought those that were charging in _were_ Tywin’s men. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/53 "2012-05-28T14:04:34Z")
Why did Tyrion wait for Stannis’s boats to make it to shore before launching flaming arrows at them? Wouldn’t they have been easier to hit while still on the water? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/54 "2012-05-28T14:07:57Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I thought those that were charging in _were_ Tywin’s men. Am I wrong? No first a ton of Stannis men charged Tyrion’s small force, then when Tyrion was down the Lannister/Tyrell cavalry charged in. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/55 "2012-05-28T14:14:39Z")
Why do you presume that the Hound wishes to errr…_seduce_ Sansa? ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/56 "2012-05-28T14:15:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Why did Tyrion wait for Stannis’s boats to make it to shore before launching flaming arrows at them? Wouldn’t they have been easier to hit while still on the water? Whenever a commander asks their archers to hold fire I assume it’s because of range. They’re supposed to have the best eye for that kind of thing. Also he probably didn’t want to waste fire arrows on the water. Better to have burning corpses and burning ground when the first men land on the shore. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/57 "2012-05-28T14:25:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Actually the battle was pretty much lost until Tywin and the Tyrells came riding in, Tyrion managed to kill the few guys who were banging at the gate but then hundreds or thousands more came charging in. “Oh, fuck me…” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/58 "2012-05-28T14:49:46Z")
Remember the old Band-Aid brand adhesive strip jingle? I sung a version of it during the wildfire scene. _I am stuck on napalm 'Cause napalm sticks to me!_ ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/59 "2012-05-28T15:08:40Z")
Not a lot of love so far for the amazing performance of “The Rains of Castamere” that played during the credits and that Bronn was singing. I thought it was freaking perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/60 "2012-05-28T15:17:58Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Not a lot of love so far for the amazing performance of “The Rains of Castamere” that played during the credits and that Bronn was singing. I thought it was freaking perfect. I liked it over the credits. I wonder who sang it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266.md?page=4)