# Game of Thrones 2.09 "Blackwater" 5/27/12 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266 "2012-05-27T18:36:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/121 "2012-05-29T19:21:27Z")
He doesn’t want to create any bastards, lest his mom kill the infant with hate beams 😛 Although I guess it’d still be her blood, so she wouldn’t. But it might’ve rubbed him the wrong way on the whole bastard issue… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/122 "2012-05-29T19:26:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why? Just because he has a lover now? In a world in which noblemen have as many mistresses as they like? There was also that whole “meh i really don’t wanna marry a Frey” thing he said before banging the nurse. Out of someone else i would have just assumed they were saying that to get into their pants, but this is Robb here, he’s got plenty Ned in him. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/123 "2012-05-29T19:29:19Z")
I’m quite confident at that moment he didn’t want to marry the Frey girl… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/124 "2012-05-29T19:33:27Z")
I don’t think he ever wanted to marry any of the Frey girls, especially since they were all depicted as very unattractive. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/125 "2012-05-29T19:47:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, woops. Tywin thought that perhaps Arya could get information to Robb, so he fed her misinformation about moving to attack him by giving Robb the impression that the Lannisters thought he was weak. That way Robb stays in place to defend, instead of scouting out and realizing the Lannister army is gone and taking advantage of the situation. He really didn’t feed any misinformation though, he just left it kind of ambiguous. And to me, it even sounded more like he was leaning towards heading to Kings Landing. Remember, he scoffed at the idea of surrendering the Iron Throne and said “A king who runs will not be king for long.” And then, when he came to a decision, he said “We’ll ride at nightfall. I want a full night’s march before he knows we’re on the move.” Which is still ambiguous, but it’s more suggestive of a retreat away from Rob’s army and towards KL, and he just doesn’t want Rob to be able to take full advantage of such a move in a timely manner. My guess is that he is trying to be somewhat cautious of spies, but he doesn’t really suspect Arya of being one. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/126 "2012-05-29T19:55:59Z")
Yeah, a guy got killed literally on his doorstep and they never managed to pin it on anyone so Tywin would be extremely cautious even in his own chambers. He definitely has to assume there are spies around, i don’t think he would believe a little girl took out Ser Amory Loch with a poison dart though. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/127 "2012-05-29T20:00:41Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Loras was loyal to Renly. With Renly dead, that loyalty is finished. That means Loras can join any side he wishes _except_ for Renly’s killers without being accused of changing sides. > > If your side goes out of business, then picking a new side is not disloyalty, it’s exactly what a knight _has to_ do. You can be loyal to dead man, but you can’t\* be loyal to a dead _cause_, and Renly’s _cause_ died with Renly. Therefore; no side to be on, and no side to be disloyal to. Loras is not just a knight he is the heir to House Tyrell. As I think Tywin said eariler they had the second largest army in the 7 kingdoms. And they just went home after Renly died. Loras is loyal to his family first as most of them are. You can bet he is there because of his family not because he is switching loyalty like a sell sword. > [@voltaire](#): > > That seems way too far-fetched that Mandon just spontaneously decided to switch sides, and it’s not like attacking Tyrion would achieve anything even if that were true. It’s also been made apparent that he and Cersei were plotting something. Remember, she was very concerned that Tyrion was going to off Joffrey, so it’s entirely fitting that she decided to just off Tyrion first, before he had a chance to plot against her, or her son. Mandon is a member of the Kings Guard. That is why he was wearing that particular armor. It is most likely that he was working on orders not switching sides. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Robb didn’t send a contingent from his army to winterfell - Bolton’s son is raising an army back up north to retake the castle. Tyrion mentions around Arya that they believe he’s sent back a force, but I think that’s to trick the viewer (and possibly Arya, if he thinks she’s a spy) into thinking Tyrion is going to attack Robb when he was actually moving south. Yeah I think it was to trick the viewer. If he wanted to trick Arya he would have said specifically that he was heading north. No reason not to. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/128 "2012-05-29T20:04:54Z")
> [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > I kind of view Cersei as someone who aspires to POWER, not necessarily the opportunity to do the same things the boys do. Except drinking, of course. > > Mind you, I think Arya is going to be Royally. Pissed. Off. when she discovers that Catelyn has arranged her marriage. And particularly if Robb should decide to welch on his brethothal (and it sure seems like he has) it’ll be all the more important that Arya lives up to hers. Should make for some nice teenage angst for Arya if and when she ever gets reunited with Mama Stark and Robb. “Nice to see you again, little sis, would you please put on this sparkly white dress and head down the aisle with this foul-looking total stranger whose bridge we crossed?” Seems to me that Robb would find out firsthand why it was a bad idea to let Arya get trained up in swordplay, in short order. > > Also, it’s becoming more and more clear to me that Sansa will never marry Joffrey now. There’s just no sense in marrying him off to someone who’s practically a nobody/political prisoner/orphan - it’s not like she has money or lands of her own, or petrified dragon eggs. She’s the daughter of the guy who was Hand of the King (two Hands ago) and hasn’t done anything special or important on her own to make her worthy of being Queen of the whole country. She doesn’t even have her groovy pet direwolf like the other Stark kids do. Cool Points lost forever. Her brother is one of the King’s mortal enemies, he and her mother have kidnapped and held for ransom two of her uncles - and what is there really to be gained from this “political” marriage, at this point? > > It’s also very clear that Joffrey and Sansa despise one another. And he’s such a hateful little creep, it’s hard to imagine what girl could have enough bad karma to deserve HIM as a husband. Well, once they kill off the rest of the Starks, Sansa would be heir. If Cersei marries one of her children to the heir of Winterfell, then they can control a lot of important land. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/129 "2012-05-29T20:17:05Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Well, once they kill off the rest of the Starks, Sansa would be heir. If Cersei marries one of her children to the heir of Winterfell, then they can control a lot of important land. Not to mention that marrying to unite enemies, or at least influence a war, is one of the biggest reasons FOR royal marriages, if not THE biggest. Unless and until a better offer comes along, there’s no reason for Joffrey/Sansa NOT to wed. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/130 "2012-05-29T20:17:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know if it’s real, but it’s on [Herbrand Street, Camden, London UK.](http://www.ghostsigns.co.uk/2008/05/herbrand-street-mural.html) Seems like it [isn’t](http://www.uproxx.com/webculture/2012/05/tyrion-lannister-is-the-fictional-political-symbol-we-can-all-get-behind/), which is a damned shame. Almost as much of one as the lack of a god of tits and wine. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/131 "2012-05-29T20:22:49Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Seems like it [isn’t](http://www.uproxx.com/webculture/2012/05/tyrion-lannister-is-the-fictional-political-symbol-we-can-all-get-behind/), which is a damned shame. Almost as much of one as the lack of a god of tits and wine. Could Bacchus be pressed (ahem) into service? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/132 "2012-05-29T20:24:08Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > > [@voltaire](#): > > > > That seems way too far-fetched that Mandon just spontaneously decided to switch sides, and it’s not like attacking Tyrion would achieve anything even if that were true. It’s also been made apparent that he and Cersei were plotting something. Remember, she was very concerned that Tyrion was going to off Joffrey, so it’s entirely fitting that she decided to just off Tyrion first, before he had a chance to plot against her, or her son. > > Mandon is a member of the Kings Guard. That is why he was wearing that particular armor. It is most likely that he was working on orders not switching sides. So you’re agreeing with me? I’m not entirely clear how what you said is responsive to what I said. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/133 "2012-05-29T20:32:01Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > [This](http://i.imgur.com/3PiKQ.gif) cracked me the hell up. Me too ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/134 "2012-05-29T20:35:15Z")
Why was the Hound so aggressive with Bronn in the tavern. Is there some back story that I missed? And what was the line which made Bronn get up: your \_\_ is going to miss you ? ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/135 "2012-05-29T20:35:32Z")
So why did Ilyn Payn allow Sansa to leave, when it seemed that he must have heard Shae telling Sansa to run? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/136 "2012-05-29T20:35:36Z")
Your imp. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/137 "2012-05-29T20:40:08Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Why was the Hound so aggressive with Bronn in the tavern. Is there some back story that I missed? And what was the line which made Bronn get up: your \_\_ is going to miss you ? The Hound is basically the the most bitter, hateful person alive. There are three things in the world that soothe his pain: Sansa (apparently), drinking himself into a stupor, and killing. Nothing in particular against Bronn, he’d just be the most interesting person to fight. Also, I suspect George was thumbing his nose at the fandom that has lots of “who would win in a fight?” discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/138 "2012-05-29T20:43:37Z")
nm, think I’m mixing media. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/139 "2012-05-29T20:44:07Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > So why did Ilyn Payn allow Sansa to leave, when it seemed that he must have heard Shae telling Sansa to run? Because he probably didn’t have any orders to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266/140 "2012-05-29T20:44:44Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Why was the Hound so aggressive with Bronn in the tavern. Is there some back story that I missed? And what was the line which made Bronn get up: your \_\_ is going to miss you ? Bronn was in full “alpha” mode in the tavern, then the Hound walked in asserting his alpha status. Two alphas just don’t coexist peacefully. And “Lord Imp” is what fills your blank. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-09-blackwater-5-27-12-no-book-spoilers/623266.md?page=8)