# Game of Thrones 2.10 "Valar Morghulis" 6/3/12 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 4, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987 "2012-06-04T02:08:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/141 "2012-06-05T06:33:31Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > **Ellis Dee** , just for my own curiosity, what character deaths would you consider to be major? Any main character. Dany or her manservant Robb, Arya or Sansa Lady Stark, and now Brienne The cripple or his wildling nanny Jamie or Cersei Tyrion or Shae Jon Snow, and now his girlfriend The whoremonger and the eunach The Hound or Bronn I’m really not feeling like any of those people could be killed off at any point, but rather that they are going to live because they are main characters and just like any other story, you don’t kill off the main characters. On the cusp would be Stannis, Renly and Drogo, and two of those did actually die so maybe there have been more major deaths than I’m giving credit for. Did Renly feel like a main character to any of the non-book readers? To me he seemed very much like a bit part, but thinking back on season one we did spend a fair amount of time with him. While Joffrey is a main character, he’s a classic bad guy so I wouldn’t count him in the breathless praise for how ruthless the author is for killing beloved characters. I’ll be surprised if Joffrey lives, to be honest. I tend to think of Drogo in the same category. Jaime and Cersei would be in this group but those two are really quite major roles so that would be pretty ruthless. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/142 "2012-06-05T06:48:27Z")
How do you write that whole post and not mention Ned? Not only the former main main-character, but the biggest name actor in the series so far. You can also add King Robert to the list. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/143 "2012-06-05T06:58:21Z")
Heh, Ned goes without saying as being the ultimate example of ruthlessly killling off your main character. King Robert was an oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/144 "2012-06-05T07:19:56Z")
My personal theory is that there are four main protagonists that are “safe”, in that they drive the various stories: Arya, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. _Everyone_ else is “fair game”, but I expect those four to survive. If not till the end of the series then at least for a long time to come. Arya and Tyrion are both too cool to kill off. Yes, I know GRRM wants you to believe that _anyone_ could be at risk, but I simply do not believe that either Tyrion or Arya is expendable. And Dany and Jon are the whole _point_ of _their_ story arcs; without them, no story. _Everyone_ else is fair game, and I expect the _majority_ of the other main characters will get bumped off sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/145 "2012-06-05T07:58:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The only explanation can be that Pyat Pree was retarded, and that’s hardly satisfying. Could be that Pree isn’t really dead, but that he let Dany go after a proper demonstration of her powers. If she is that powerful with baby dragons, how would he hope to contain full-size ones? So Pree lets her go, knowing that she’ll take Daxos out and leave for Westeros soon. That leaves Pree with no dragon power, but is still the most powerful man in Qarth. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/146 "2012-06-05T08:12:23Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Arya and Tyrion are both too cool to kill off. Yes, I know GRRM wants you to believe that _anyone_ could be at risk, but I simply do not believe that either Tyrion or Arya is expendable. While I agree with this, Arya has another weapon–that coin. It’s going to be a while before she can use it. And she isn’t going to be killed off until she completes that arc. Tyrion, I think, will have to survive on cool factor alone. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/147 "2012-06-05T08:21:35Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m really not feeling like any of those people could be killed off at any point, but rather that they are going to live because they are main characters and just like any other story, you don’t kill off the main characters. I say they can kill off anyone without a major “purpose”, or anyone whose purpose cannot be completed by someone else. For instance, Lady Stark’s current purpose is to ensure the safety of her children. She is now employing Brienne to those ends. Lady Stark could die and Brienne would complete that task for her, since Brienne has pledged her loyalty to Catelyn. Or, Brienne could die and Catelyn could find another. But as Shakester said, no one else can replace Jon or Dany, so they seem safe at least. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/148 "2012-06-05T11:00:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Any main character. > > Dany or her manservant > Robb, Arya or Sansa > Lady Stark, and now Brienne > The cripple or his wildling nanny > Jamie or Cersei > Tyrion or Shae > Jon Snow, and now his girlfriend > The whoremonger and the eunach > The Hound or Bronn > > I’m really not feeling like any of those people could be killed off at any point, but rather that they are going to live because they are main characters and just like any other story, you don’t kill off the main characters. > > On the cusp would be Stannis, Renly and Drogo, and two of those did actually die so maybe there have been more major deaths than I’m giving credit for. > > Did Renly feel like a main character to any of the non-book readers? To me he seemed very much like a bit part, but thinking back on season one we did spend a fair amount of time with him. > > While Joffrey is a main character, he’s a classic bad guy so I wouldn’t count him in the breathless praise for how ruthless the author is for killing beloved characters. I’ll be surprised if Joffrey lives, to be honest. I tend to think of Drogo in the same category. Jaime and Cersei would be in this group but those two are really quite major roles so that would be pretty ruthless. Theon? Tywin? Sam? ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/149 "2012-06-05T11:56:14Z")
Ok, so I’m still confused about Winterfell… 500 soldiers were sent to Winterfell. I assume that was them out there with the horn blowing. If that was a trick by Theon’s people, then it might have been made more clear. So Theon’s people knocked him out, burned the place, killed everyone and left. So what happened to the 500 soldiers? They didn’t seem to be inside or outside at any point afterwards. Wouldn’t they secure the keep? Wouldn’t the kids see this, and it being a force loyal to them, go to them? It strikes me that now, they’d see Winterfell was safe, and stay there. Not spend a good month heading off to the Wall… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/150 "2012-06-05T12:16:03Z")
We heard Robb telling those going to relieve Winterfell that they should offer an amnesty to the Iron Born. All of them could leave–except for Theon. (He wanted Theon returned to him as a traitor.) Then we saw Theon’s inspiring speech to his men as the forces gathered outside Winterfell. At the end of which, they knocked him out & trussed them up. It appears that they might have been preparing to offer him in exchange for the chance to die gloriously. (They never really cared for Theon–nobody does!) We didn’t see what happened next. Could it be that Robb should not have trusted the Bastard of the guy who is fond of flaying? The Starks do tend to think that people will be honorable but we’ve seen that they often aren’t. Tune in next year… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/151 "2012-06-05T13:15:38Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I say they can kill off anyone without a major “purpose”, or anyone whose purpose cannot be completed by someone else. For instance, Lady Stark’s current purpose is to ensure the safety of her children. She is now employing Brienne to those ends. Lady Stark could die and Brienne would complete that task for her, since Brienne has pledged her loyalty to Catelyn. Or, Brienne could die and Catelyn could find another. > > But as Shakester said, no one else can replace Jon or Dany, so they seem safe at least. I wouldn’t say Brienne, but yes, the Stark children are taken care off now - Jon has the Night’s Watch (and now the Wildlings), Robb has The North, Sansa has the Hound/Littlefinger, Arya has her murder genie, Bran and Rickon have Osha and Hodor. And none of them could make a more terrible job of looking after the kids than Cat did 🙂 I also like your earlier theory that Pyat Pree just let her go in a “whelp, that’s never gonna work, time for plan B” way. I’m going to pretend that’s the truth if she buggers off from Qarth next season 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/152 "2012-06-05T13:43:14Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I tend to think of Drogo in the same category. Jaime and Cersei would be in this group but those two are really quite major roles so that would be pretty ruthless. Drogo was a surprise for me. From the way everyone was going on about the Dothraki, I thought they were going to be major players in the battle for the Iron Throne. Turns out…not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/153 "2012-06-05T14:08:11Z")
\*\*SenorBeef \*\*makes an excellent point about Robb’s idiocy. I hadn’t considered the monumental stupidity of casting the die with Talisa, but yes, if he wants to get back to Winterfell, he could have at least held off for a few months! And predictably, no one floated the possibility of merely schtupping Talisa on the side, which would seem a pretty viable option when even honorable old Ned raised his bastard, Flayings R Us seems on good terms with his, and Robert at least made sure his kids were in decent situations. At least Ned Stark made stupid decisions out of a Penzancean devotion to duty. Robb on the other hand seems to be going out of his way to be dumb, impolitic, and dishonest, with no excuse. Anyway, since no one has mentioned it yet, how about some love for Nikolaj Coster-Waldau? His face when he saw Brienne dispatch the Northmen, and torture the one guy to death, spoke volumes. I hope we get to see them working together again - they seemed to fall into a rhythm very naturally, and only dumb luck undid them. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/154 "2012-06-05T14:45:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Speaking of the dragons, you know what would be funny ? If Viserys was right - when he was telling Doreah about the rows of dragon skulls in the Iron Throne room of his youth, he said the last, most recent dragon skulls were all deformed and stunted, the size of dog skulls. > > I’d be tickled pink if Dany’s dragons never grew any bigger at all. My take on that is that the Targaryans had lost the knack of dragon-husbandry over the years. They started out being “part-dragon” either literally or metaphorically, and eventually forgot how to do it with all the incest-craziness. So the last dragons were all sickly because they didn’t get the care and attention they needed. Dany is a freak throwback to the original Targaryans, born with the knack of dragon husbandry. I’m sure her dragons will thrive. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/155 "2012-06-05T14:50:08Z")
Oh, and my take on the warlock guy getting toasted is that it was just yet another example of everyone seriously underestimating Dany, which has been the whole theme of her character since episode one. She’s the _mother_ of freaking _dragons_. Fuck with her and you _will_ regret it. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/156 "2012-06-05T14:53:54Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Anyway, since no one has mentioned it yet, how about some love for Nikolaj Coster-Waldau? His face when he saw Brienne dispatch the Northmen, and torture the one guy to death, spoke volumes. I hope we get to see them working together again - they seemed to fall into a rhythm very naturally, and only dumb luck undid them. Good point. I agree that they made a good duo, though I don’t think it’ll be long term. Jamie was attempting to flirt with her earlier, but I don’t think he was really attracted, I think he was just trying anything to distract her enough to escape. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/157 "2012-06-05T15:14:49Z")
Robb’s marriage is stupid, but out was done on the sly, so I am guessing he’s hoping to keep it a secret until after they cross the bridge. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/158 "2012-06-05T16:50:31Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Robb’s marriage is stupid, but out was done on the sly, so I am guessing he’s hoping to keep it a secret until after they cross the bridge. They already crossed the bridge in season 1. Frey let them cross in exchange for the promise that Robb would wed one of his daughters later. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/159 "2012-06-05T16:53:26Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > They already crossed the bridge in season 1. Frey let them cross in exchange for the promise that Robb would wed one of his daughters later. I thought they were going to have to cross again to get back to Winterfell. Guess I am confused. I still think he means to try and keep it secret for now. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-2-10-valar-morghulis-6-3-12-no-book-spoilers/623987/160 "2012-06-05T16:55:17Z")
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