# Game of Thrones 3.04 "And Now His Watch is Ended" 4/21/13 No Book Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340 "2013-04-21T22:12:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/41 "2013-04-22T14:07:19Z")
Yeah, basically anyone else would have used the slave army as an investment and would have needed the slavers to make a return. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/42 "2013-04-22T14:08:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t think this is a minor nit at all and I agree that the way it went down was completely implausible. > > First, it seems unlikely that only one man was in charge of a significant part of the productive output of one city, their soldier slave trade. Although possible. So it’s harder to pin it down to the stupidity of one individual - presumably he’d have to okay it with some sort of council. But even if not. > > The guy is arrogant, but you have to be an idiot to put yourself in the situation that he was in. He didn’t ask for a crash course in dragon training, he didn’t inquire how to take care of the dragon or how to control it or anything like that. The plan was just to be handed this wild, powerful creature that no one had known for hundreds of years and just figure out how to deal with it. It’d be hard enough for someone who’d never seen children to be handed a crying child and figure out what he needed to do - let alone a fire breathing, non-human monster. There is simply no way there wouldn’t have been an acclimatization and familiarization period where he was satisfied that he could control the dragons before he handed over the slave army. > > Furthermore, Dany’s ploy was pretty obvious. If you hand over your entire army - an army that you know will unflinchingly follow the will of their new master - you are completely at their whims. It’s hard to believe that someone wouldn’t realize that it would be an obvious ploy to immediately use that entire army in the way that she did. At most, you’d expect the guy to tell you that he’d give you half his army of unsullen for a dragon, otherwise he not only has no way to guarantee his safety and profiting from the deal, he’d be counting on the trust and mercy of someone in that crazy world where everyone is a dick. Especially after Dany had Missandei - they were shocked that Dany spoke Valyrian, but it wasn’t even necessary. She could’ve just asked her new slave what the master had actually being saying and learned about it that way. > > And then let’s examine the economics of the situation. Yes, dragons are the most unique things in that world, possibly priceless. But how does it generate a profit? The unsullen army represents entire generations worth of the work and output of an entire city. Their main(?) form of trade, their main product. They will not have another generation ready to be sold again for at least a dozen years. How do they keep their economy going in the meantime? By finding someone fabulously rich and selling them the dragons? Seems like there might only be a handful of of potential buyers in the whole world. By using the dragon themselves to destroy their enemies? It seems like the city and the master were businessmen and traders foremost, not conquerors or brigands. > > So while the scene was great and very satisfying, I wish they’d have gone further to make it more logical, to let us see what the other end thought they were getting out of the deal, and at least some acknowledgement and preparations for the obvious potential betrayal. He knew a young girl could handle three at one time, so he thought he could handle one. I am sure he thought they were domesticated like a horse, since the Targareyeans used to ride them into battle. Economically, lots of people have armies, but there are only three dragons. So it makes sense to trade the army for the dragon. They are in the arms business and could sell a dragon for alot more than soldiers and they don’t have to feed the dragon as much. Good episode but I missed Ygritte and Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/43 "2013-04-22T14:26:10Z")
I enjoyed this episode, but wasn’t everyone who didn’t read the book thinking: _Does Slave Master guy really think it’s a good idea to give someone an army of 8,000 right there in front of him? He better have an army of 12,000 standing nearby! And does he really think that a dragon can just be given away?_ Oh, and maybe I missed this, but what does it mean that they are “unsullied” and why is that so important? ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/44 "2013-04-22T14:30:53Z")
Marrying Loras is a good out out for Sansa and the Tyrells, but it’s terrible for the Lannisters. She’s the only thing Robb is likely to trade Jaime for. If she is married to a respectable, rich nobleman far out of harms way, how does Tywin get his heir back from the guys who are \* this close\* to killing him? Can someone explain the political danger Littlefinger poses with regard to Sansa? Something about how if Robb dies, then she’s the key to the North. How? She’s got two brothers who would inherit before her. Has word gotten back to King’s Landing that the Stark boys are “dead”? Do the southerners think the northmen would accept Littlefinger as their lord just because he married into the family? They’re already in a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/45 "2013-04-22T14:36:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > You’re right about the Unsullied. I don’t know if they’ll explore that idea, but they’re certainly not capable of independent thought or action. And now she has to feed 8,000 more people, and somehow get them across the sea. How’s that going to work? She can sack Astapor an take what ever she needs from the slave masters. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/46 "2013-04-22T14:41:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, and maybe I missed this, but what does it mean that they are “unsullied” and why is that so important? That’s just what they are called, i imagine it refers to having been castrated at a young age. > [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Can someone explain the political danger Littlefinger poses with regard to Sansa? Something about how if Robb dies, then she’s the key to the North. How? She’s got two brothers who would inherit before her. Has word gotten back to King’s Landing that the Stark boys are “dead”? Do the southerners think the northmen would accept Littlefinger as their lord just because he married into the family? They’re already in a civil war. Even if they didn’t “accept” him whoever married Sansa would have legal claim to the north. It’s not like the northmen could have elections or anything like that, they wouldn’t be happy about it but if it came to that point it would mean Robb was already defeated so they really wouldn’t have much fight left in them. ---
**Author:** ![HammerJoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@HammerJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HammerJoe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/47 "2013-04-22T14:49:56Z")
Question: How is she going to cross the sea with all those soldiers? As I understand the GOT universe boats seem to be scarce. ---
**Author:** ![Cowboy8467](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Cowboy8467](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cowboy8467)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/48 "2013-04-22T14:56:36Z")
What I don’t understand about Margaery offering to have Sansa marry Loras is that he is part of the Kingsguard isn’t he? That means that he is not allowed to get married or hold titles. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/49 "2013-04-22T14:57:14Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Marrying Loras is a good out out for Sansa and the Tyrells, but it’s terrible for the Lannisters. She’s the only thing Robb is likely to trade Jaime for. If she is married to a respectable, rich nobleman far out of harms way, how does Tywin get his heir back from the guys who are \* this close\* to killing him? > > Can someone explain the political danger Littlefinger poses with regard to Sansa? Something about how if Robb dies, then she’s the key to the North. How? She’s got two brothers who would inherit before her. Has word gotten back to King’s Landing that the Stark boys are “dead”? Do the southerners think the northmen would accept Littlefinger as their lord just because he married into the family? They’re already in a civil war. No one knows if the brothers are alive, and given that Theon made a big show of burning two orphans there’s good reason to believe they’re dead. So I guess she’d be a player after Robb - not sure how it works with monarchy and women in this world. Yeah, I’m not quite sure what the deal with Littlefinger is. It seems like the warnings are more about him being lecherous - essentially satisfying his lifelong desire to be with Cat and transferring it to Sansa. Edit: Loras isn’t part of Joffrey’s kingsguard. He was part of Renly’s, but that’s not recognized as a legitimate king/kingsguard. I can’t remember if he was part of Robert’s, but it would seem that if he was, then the kingsguard aren’t all necessary transferred to the new king. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/50 "2013-04-22T15:05:13Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > No one knows if the brothers are alive, and given that Theon made a big show of burning two orphans there’s good reason to believe they’re dead. Somebody knows now. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/51 "2013-04-22T15:36:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Furthermore, Dany’s ploy was pretty obvious. If you hand over your entire army - an army that you know will unflinchingly follow the will of their new master - you are completely at their whims. This is exactly why I thought that this was NOT going to happen (until it did); it seemed like way too obvious a ruse, that I assumed there must be some reason that it couldn’t or wouldn’t come to pass. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/52 "2013-04-22T16:24:05Z")
So I can’t make sense of what happened to Theon. The guy who eventually came to his rescue (shooting arrows at the rapists) was the one who freed him originally, telling him that he was sent by Theon’s sister, right? So either that guy had an elaborate murder plot against the people he knew would hunt down Theon (he blamed Theon for killing them), or something mysterious is up. I thought that it might’ve been significant that Theon said that his true father was Ned Stark, and if rescue boy worked for Theon’s father rather than sister, he might have instructions to test Theon’s loyalties and kill him if he’s not loyal to the Greyjoys. But they didn’t have that conversation until they were already underneath the (apparent) Bolton torture room. It’s not as if he could’ve decided at that point, based on the revelation of Theon’s loyalties, whether to take him to the torture room or to safety. I don’t see what the Boltons would have to gain by allowing him to escape, getting some men killed in the effort to retake him, and then recapturing him. … Unless he’s actually being held in a Greyjoy torture room mocked up like a Bolton one, and Theon’s confession about loyalty actually did get him taken to the torture room rather than the balloons and party hats room. It would have to be a very elaborate test of loyalty by the Greyjoys, and Theon already effectively passed his test of loyalty by betraying the starks. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/53 "2013-04-22T16:48:23Z")
Yeah, I am relieved in these threads when folks basically say “it’s not expected to make sense yet.” 'Cuz it really and truly doesn’t quite yet… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/54 "2013-04-22T16:50:43Z")
That was made of awesome. BTW, Dany did understand whatever the Ben Kingsley rip off was saying. Does anyone remember if there was any hint…Ser Jorah certainly did understand from his reactions, in earlier episodes. What the hell is Tywin going to do to fix Joffery? Put him over his knee? He is king for god’s sake. All he can do is make sure the guy cannot do more real harm than he has already and he accomplished that by being/having Tyrion act as Hand. As per Theon; it was a ruse to break him and his spirit. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/55 "2013-04-22T16:52:24Z")
I’m pretty sure Charles Dance could order people to jump off a cliff and have a reasonable chance of succeeding. I’m looking forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/56 "2013-04-22T17:17:44Z")
So we’ve now had three complete scenes across two episodes regarding Podrick and His Magic Penis. I have to say committing that much screen time to this side quest cannot possibly be _just_ comic relief. I’m going to guess that someone is making a move for the prostitutes’ allegiance, and set this up to test that out. Likely suspects are Tyrion and Varys, with a black sheep Ros thrown in there for good measure. (Though either Cersei or Tywin could be bankrolling the entire operation, in the hopes that they can smoke out Tyrion’s lover.) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/57 "2013-04-22T17:43:50Z")
Aside from all the obvious awesomeness of Danys story as already noted, I think I like her story the best also because it is the clearest. Everyone else’s goals alliances plans etc. are very confusing. I get broad idea that many people feel they have a right to be the king, And they are scattered around with various armies and alliances plotting to make that a reality, but thats about it. Oh, and Lannisters always pay their debts. By the way, Martin is a kinky bastard…whole lotta incest going on… In addition to what they are portraying in the series, I read that Dany was going to be her brothers wife until he decided Khal was a better idea, and that that is normal in some parts of the GOT world… ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/58 "2013-04-22T17:45:21Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Even if they didn’t “accept” him whoever married Sansa would have legal claim to the north. It’s not like the northmen could have elections or anything like that, they wouldn’t be happy about it but if it came to that point it would mean Robb was already defeated so they really wouldn’t have much fight left in them. Good point. If the north is defeated militarily, it doesn’t matter who is installed as the boss up there. They will have no choice but to go along with it, since they will have lost the means to refuse. As for how Little finger fits into the bigger picture… Varys and grandma Tyrell seemed concerned that Littlefinger could do something unclear involving Sansa (marry her?) that, if Robb’s war fails would give him a whole lot of power, which is a bad thing. AIUI, the crown is sending Littlefinger to (charm? marry?) John Arryn’s widow, to get the Vale under their influence, right? If he blows it off, what can he do that puts him in a better position? The Lannisters will not be happy with him stealing their best hostage. He’s irrelevant to the northmen without an army of his own or a royal decree that says he’s the boss. Nobody will care if he marries the late rebel Robb Stark’s sister. What’s he going to do, auction her off to the highest bidder? Is he banking on a Lannister victory that renders Sansa useless except as a means for him to legitimize a title (Lord of the North) that he expects the King to give him? ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/59 "2013-04-22T17:51:33Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > By the way, Martin is a kinky bastard…whole lotta incest going on… In addition to what they are portraying in the series, I read that Dany was going to be her brothers wife until he decided Khal was a better idea, and that that is normal in some parts of the GOT world… Not a big deal because they already mentioned that the Targareons have always married brother and sister, but these topics are supposed to be in a world where the books don’t exist. So don’t talk about the books, even if you’re just comparing something that has already happened. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340/60 "2013-04-22T18:03:32Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Podrick and His Magic Penis. Band name! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-04-and-now-his-watch-is-ended-4-21-13-no-book-spoilers/656340.md?page=4)