# Game of Thrones 3.07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" 5/12/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162 "2013-05-12T17:12:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/261 "2013-05-15T11:36:26Z")
I think all the Wildlings climb the wall, unless there are secret passages known only to a few. In any case it seems these methods would be difficult for an army to traverse unnoticed. The Night’s Watchman who fled in the first episode probably sneaked back through Castle Black somehow, or found some secret passageway. Bran and crew appear to be heading that way, so maybe we’ll find out? Bran sure as hell aint climbing the wall. > [@Shakester](#): > > I don’t think “You Know Nothing” Jon Snow actually _has_ a plan other than to continue shagging Ygritte. Looks to me like he’s winging it and hoping it all turns out OK in the end. > > He _can’t_ change sides back to the Night’s Watch because being a Crow requires celibacy. Crows don’t have girlfriends. Jon Snow _does_ know that. I remember Sam said something in season 1, about how some of the Rangers (or at least - some of the Night’s Watchmen) sneaked off to a brothel not far from the wall. It sounds like some people take their vows more seriously than others. He’s also technically following the Halfhand’s orders to ‘do what it takes to fit in’. He’s obviously struggling with the fact that he has to pretend he’s forsaken his vows, and in doing so he’s flirting with the whole free folk lifestyle. He definitely seems like he intends on remaining a Crow. Maybe he’ll try keep Ygritte a secret, like Tyrion does with Shae. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/262 "2013-05-15T11:37:37Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Celibacy and chastity aren’t the same think, though the Night’s Watch probably frowns on it’s members taking regular concubines. Yeah, it’s mentioned at least twice in season 1 that crows routinely sneak off to a place called Mole’s Town to go whoring. It’s pretty much a frowned on, but ultimately tolerated open secret. Mance Rader isn’t just leading an army of Wildlings; he’s leading an exodus of everyone who lives north of the wall in order to escape the White Walkers and their zombies. This includes all sorts of women, children, elderly, livestock, baggage, giants and other things that can’t be easily hauled up and over the wall. He needs to capture a gate. Presumably the only gates in the wall are guarded by castles. I imagine the Night’s watch probably destroyed/plugged up the gates in the castles they couldn’t afford to man. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/263 "2013-05-15T12:29:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It’s not clear when he deserted. He may have returned to Castleblack, and decided to desert from there. Didn’t the deserter flee South directly (by whatever route), rather than return to Castleblack to report the eldritch occurrence? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/264 "2013-05-15T12:38:53Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Yeah, it’s mentioned at least twice in season 1 that crows routinely sneak off to a place called Mole’s Town to go whoring. It’s pretty much a frowned on, but ultimately tolerated open secret… The non-religious orders of Westeros (crows, Maesters & Kingsguard) probably decreed “celibacy” not because they considered sex to be evil, but to prevent members from conflicting loyalties. Wives, regular mistresses & children would all distract them from their duties. Other family ties are severed; visits might occur but Maester Aemon had removed himself from the Targaryan line & Ned’s brother (who disappeared North of the Wall) would never rule Winterfell. A little discreet letting off of steam, well… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/265 "2013-05-15T13:09:40Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Jon Snow talked about the wildlings always losing. > > This time the North is at war with the South, the armies are distracted, the nights watch is super weak and leaderless, and if Robb dies/gets captured there will be no leadership to lead those Northern armies to battle the wildlings…One more reason to think Robb is headed for some kind of downfall. Doesn’t even need to get killed : he’s declared the North a free and independent kingdom, hasn’t he ? So Tywin, Stannis et al. are probably going to go “Oh, there’s a giant army at your doorstep, and your main castle’s been ransacked by the Greyjoys ? Gee, that’s a bummer, “your Grace”. Tell you what : you go and deal with that, and we’ll sit here and watch y’all get killed. I’m sure you won’t mind our armies standing at our northern frontier, for protection you understand, just in case they beat you. Or you beat them and your [SIZE=1]army is exhausted from the fighting.” [SIZE=2]The alterna[SIZE=2]tive would be for Tywin to declare the North still part of the Kingdom, [SIZE=2]which would mean he’d be duty bound to try [SIZE=2]and [SIZE=2]protect [SIZE=2]it (else, what’s the point ?), which Robb would have to oppose, being King in the North and all that. Either way [SIZE=2]he’s got a two[SIZE=2]-front war.[/SIZE] Those hardly ever seem to work out, do they ? I have to wonder what the Wildlings eat thoug[SIZE=2]h, particularly ever since they[SIZE=2]‘ve all regrouped in Mance Raider’s giant camp (along with giants no less, those guys must eat a lot !). [SIZE=2]It’s all frozen landscapes so there can’[SIZE=2]t be much in the way of farming/herding, and hunting[SIZE=2] for that large a population must have exhausted [SIZE=2]whatever ga[SIZE=2]me there[SIZE=2] [SIZE=2]might have been around right quick.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] And Castle [SIZE=2]Black is inland (smack in the middle of the [SIZE=2]Wall in fact, if the opening credits are to be be[SIZE=2]lieved) so fishing’s right out…[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/266 "2013-05-15T13:43:24Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I don’t think “You Know Nothing” Jon Snow actually _has_ a plan other than to continue shagging Ygritte. Looks to me like he’s winging it and hoping it all turns out OK in the end. > > He _can’t_ change sides back to the Night’s Watch because being a Crow requires celibacy. Crows don’t have girlfriends. Jon Snow _does_ know that. He’s a planted spy, he can’t be a part of the wildling army and keep his Nightwatch oaths. Qhorin halfhand told him to do whatever it takes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/267 "2013-05-15T13:45:13Z")
Does anyone remember if Jon Snow found out anything about how his uncle died? Wasn’t that the big reason he joined the Nightwatch and why he went undercover? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/268 "2013-05-15T13:46:59Z")
They didn’t find anything specific but i think running into an ancient evil race commanding a zombie army sorta answers the question. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/269 "2013-05-15T14:47:25Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Does anyone remember if Jon Snow found out anything about how his uncle died? Wasn’t that the big reason he joined the Nightwatch and why he went undercover? Jon joined the Night’s Watch for a lot of reasons, I think. But it seemed to me in season 1 that it was primarily to get away from Catelyn once Ned agreed to go to King’s Landing. They were chaffing against each other pretty badly. With his uncle a highly respected member, and being a bastard, it seems like an honorable choice. And being raised a Stark, Jon places a lot of value in honor and oaths. Didn’t Catelyn even try to refuse him saying goodbye to a comatose Bran? With regards to King’s Landing running out of food, despite a “five year,” provision for winter… wasn’t the food shortage of last season really the result of the coming war? I thought that Tyrion, via Joffery, essentially put the city on lock down in the face of Stannis’ fleet. Right? So maybe their five year storage is somewhere outside the city, or not easily accessible? My WAG, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/270 "2013-05-15T14:59:39Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Does anyone remember if Jon Snow found out anything about how his uncle died? Wasn’t that the big reason he joined the Nightwatch and why he went undercover? Benjen disappeared after Jon joined the Night’s Watch. ---
**Author:** ![Cowboy8467](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Cowboy8467](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cowboy8467)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/271 "2013-05-15T15:29:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Benjen disappeared after Jon joined the Night’s Watch. Yeah, I believe he traveled from Winterfell to Castle Black with his uncle accompanying him at least part of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/272 "2013-05-15T15:30:18Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > With regards to King’s Landing running out of food, despite a “five year,” provision for winter… wasn’t the food shortage of last season really the result of the coming war? I thought that Tyrion, via Joffery, essentially put the city on lock down in the face of Stannis’ fleet. Right? So maybe their five year storage is somewhere outside the city, or not easily accessible? My WAG, anyway. Yeah, probably. I mean, even without the city going in full-blown lockdown, Stannis’ fleet might be raiding trade lanes at sea, while Robb’s armies are probably living off the land at this point - and AFAIK they’re in the Riverlands so cutting supply lines coming both from the North and the Lannister lands in the West ([map](http://gameofthrones.net/images/Westeros_Maps/Map_Westeros_Political.gif), [better map](http://gameofthrones.net/images/Westeros_Maps/map_of_westeros.jpg)). We know Robb’s taken Harrenhal, which means that he’s either cut off or is disrupting river traffic on Blackwater Rush (rivers were the main highways back then where large freight was concerned). Add to that fleeing civilians clogging the roads, the banditry & looting that inevitably follows war and the breakdown of social order, and yeah food supplies are probably in disarray in the whole region, with the only big supply line remaining open leading into the Reach (i.e. the Tyrell’s lands), which hadn’t allied with the Lannisters yet. Besides that, KL also faced a refugee problem at the time - Cersei eventually ordered them unilaterally forbidden entrance, but I expect enough had gotten in to make a difference before the orders were given. Another interesting feature of that map : apparently the Wall doesn’t extend all the way across, there’s a portion of the border that is only protected by a river. Which might make Osha a wetback :p. [QUOTE=Dewey Finn] Does anyone remember if Jon Snow found out anything about how his uncle died? Wasn’t that the big reason he joined the Nightwatch and why he went undercover? [/QUOTE] AFAIK we don’t know that he died. I mean, it’s very \*very \*likely, since members of his patrol came back dead, literally, but as of right now his body hasn’t turned up. No body, no murder, that’s what they taught me in the Mafia. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/273 "2013-05-15T15:36:45Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Didn’t the deserter flee South directly (by whatever route), rather than return to Castleblack to report the eldritch occurrence? I don’t think we have any evidence either way. I concluded he went by way of Castle Black, because it is easier for him to get past the Wall. No need to report the White Walkers if he was scared, just report back and keep his head down until he saw an opportunity to desert. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/274 "2013-05-15T15:40:11Z")
There’s a scene where Benjen’s horse makes its own way back to the Wall with no rider. That’s pretty mysterious, and I guess there’d be no point in doing that from a writing standpoint if you weren’t going to make it a plot point. I think Jon himself says “That’s my uncle’s horse - but where’s my uncle?” Generally, in fiction, if we don’t see a dead body, we can’t say they’re dead for certain. I think the fate of Benjen will probably be resolved in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/275 "2013-05-15T16:06:48Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Generally, in fiction, if we don’t see a dead body, we can’t say they’re dead for certain. I think the fate of Benjen will probably be resolved in the future. From what we saw and heard about Benjen I fully expect him to turn up again sooner or later. There would be no point establishing him as a major badass only to have him wander off and vanish forever. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/276 "2013-05-15T21:32:57Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Wasn’t Cersei planning a murder/suicide in case Stannis’s forces did succeed in taking King’s Landing? Something I wondered about that scene: she definitely was planning to kill Tommen and herself, but when she sent for Joffrey (“Did my mother say it was urgent business?”) I wondered if she was just trying to get him out of the dangerous area or whether she was planning to have him “killed for his own protection” as well. (If it was the latter then I’m certain Joffrey had no more idea than Tommen, but, as Tyrion has observed, the boy’s not that bright.) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/277 "2013-05-15T21:46:04Z")
Thanks for reminding me. That scene, in which the battle is raging and Cersei called for Joffrey, was hilarious. Any legitimate king would say, “Screw that. We’re in the middle of _battle_.” But the coward Joffrey says, “Did my mother say it was urgent business?” Any excuse to avoid danger. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/278 "2013-05-15T21:59:40Z")
I actually thought it would’ve been more interesting if they showed Joffrey trying to be a legitimate badass and mostly failing at it. It’d make him a more complex character anyway. Right now he’s just a standard cowardly cruel sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/279 "2013-05-15T22:22:53Z")
Joffrey’s behaviour is the way it is to contrast with the other king: Stannis was the first man off the boat and the first man over the walls, and the last man to be forcibly dragged away from the battle. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/280 "2013-05-15T22:32:22Z")
I realize, but he may be the only character on the show who’s completely one note and has no depth whatsoever. He’s a walking archetype. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162.md?page=15)