# Game of Thrones 3.07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" 5/12/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162 "2013-05-12T17:12:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/161 "2013-05-14T13:49:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And he does that thing with his tongue… 🙂 If we’re going to count **that** , Podrick must be a candidate for the sainthood: I don’t think he’s done anything even morally questionable, and he makes whores give it up for free. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/162 "2013-05-14T13:52:26Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > is there a living character who’s morally admirable? Hodor. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/163 "2013-05-14T13:54:45Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > BTW, Rob talking to Talisa about meeting her parents, her being pregnant, all that… he might as well be a police officer on the day before his retirement. Robb is not long for this world I’m sad to say, he’s an underrated character. I agree. I’ve come to the conclusion that **no one** is allowed to be happy. Rob and Talisa are simply too happy to be alive for much longer. I’m beginning to think the same for John Snow and the wild woman (igret?). I’m uncertain about Joffrey though, he seems pretty happy, but I just don’t think that the show would kill him off…because that’s what the audience (or at least _I_) have wanted since the first season. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/164 "2013-05-14T13:57:13Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Cat would’ve thrown any Lannister kid out of a window to save the life of her own kids. Though being Cat it would have been the wrong kid, it would have ruined perfectly good blinds during the defenestration, and the kid would have landed on an innocent old lady and her parakeet before somehow causing everything to catch on fire. > [@gonzoron](#): > > Hodor. I agree, but it doesn’t answer my question… Oh, you’re saying Hodor is a good guy. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/165 "2013-05-14T14:00:39Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I agree. > > I’ve come to the conclusion that **no one** is allowed to be happy. Rob and Talisa are simply too happy to be alive for much longer. I’m beginning to think the same for John Snow and the wild woman (igret?). > > I’m uncertain about Joffrey though, he seems pretty happy, but I just don’t think that the show would kill him off…because that’s what the audience (or at least _I_) have wanted since the first season. Curious… who’d get kinged if Joffrey had an unfortunate accident? (I’m not asking for what the actual legitimate line of succession would be; it’s fairly clear that the most legitimate claimant based on bloodlines is either Stannis or Blacksmith Bastard Boy if we’re counting from the Baratheons or Dany if we’re treating Robert as an imposter, and none of that would change if Joffrey suddenly fell off a battlement.) Presumably a Lannister… would it actually be Tyrion? He’s apparently technically entitled to Casterly Rock, though Tywin won’t give it to him. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/166 "2013-05-14T14:05:13Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Curious… who’d get kinged if Joffrey had an unfortunate accident? Next in line would be his younger brother, then his younger sister. As for the other claimants, not much would change since that’s what they’re all fighting over now and Joffrey is officially a Baratheon. Stannis would only inherit if Joffrey and both of his siblings died OR were officially declared illegitimate (I’m not really sure who would make that official- the Grand Septon perhaps?), and since Stannis has been ruled a traitor his rights to succession could be set aside if there is a contender with a stronger army. Robb has blood claims to the Kingdom of the North (obsolete until it was revived after Ned died) but he has no blood claims to the Iron Throne but he does have an army and with enough might and a power vacuum could pull it off like Robert did. The only way Tyrion could become king is through conquest like Robert did as he has no blood claims to anything other than Casterly Rock (and his father wants to block him from that), and since he doesn’t have an army conquest isn’t likely either. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/167 "2013-05-14T14:16:41Z")
Daenarys of course has the best claim to the Iron Throne and also has a growing army and growing dragons. But (this is not a spoiler, just blind speculation) I don’t expect her to become invincible anytime soon or it would make for a boring and quick wrap-up (_‘And then an inbred silver haired woman swooped in on a dragon and destroyed every army in Westeros and said “I’m queen now, somebody get me a mojito, some pork chops for my dragons, and russel up 4,000 servings of eunuch chow for my army!” The End.’)_ ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/168 "2013-05-14T14:17:06Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I agree. > > I’ve come to the conclusion that **no one** is allowed to be happy. Rob and Talisa are simply too happy to be alive for much longer. I’m beginning to think the same for John Snow and the wild woman (igret?). Well, at least we know Jon Snow and Ygrette are headed for dark clouds, and they know it too. Jon’s going to have to choose between her and the crows (or her and the North), and whichever way it goes, it’s going to end in tears. Ygritte can’t live like a fancy laaaawd in a fancy tower that touches the clouds ; Jon won’t be able to let the wildlings pillage the North & Winterfell. By contrast, apart from the rebellion itself going a bit pear shaped at the moment, everything seems to be going sunny side up for Robb - he’s winning battles, he’s got a lovely wife with a truly remarkable arse who’s already giving him an heir, he appears to have patched things up with the Freys, Jaime’s ongoing arc might mean he’s going to get one of his sisters back soon-ish… That’s no good, that’s no good at all ! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/169 "2013-05-14T14:45:09Z")
The Starks are not going to get the girls back. The Lannisters only have Sansa and she is going to marry Tyrion. Littlefinger is the one who promised the exchange and he is quite willing to make empty promises. There is no reason to give Sansa back anyway once Jaime is back in Lannister territory. I never bought that Bolton let Jaime go for humanitarian reasons, I think the Boltons are plotting to betray the Starks and Jaime is a symbol of their good faith to the Lannisters. I think they are torturing Theon to get information about the Starks that they can use against them. The girls messing with Theon was believable to me since the sigil of the Boltons is a flayed man. Each house seems very proud of what their sigil represents and any member of the house of Bolton would not be put off by torture at all. I can’t wait for Jaime to introduce Brienne to Cersei. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/170 "2013-05-14T14:48:54Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Curious… who’d get kinged if Joffrey had an unfortunate accident? (I’m not asking for what the actual legitimate line of succession would be; it’s fairly clear that the most legitimate claimant based on bloodlines is either Stannis or Blacksmith Bastard Boy if we’re counting from the Baratheons or Dany if we’re treating Robert as an imposter, and none of that would change if Joffrey suddenly fell off a battlement.) Presumably a Lannister… would it actually be Tyrion? He’s apparently technically entitled to Casterly Rock, though Tywin won’t give it to him. Tomnen, last seen almost getting poisoned by Cersei during the battle of the Blackwater. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/171 "2013-05-14T14:52:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Next in line would be his younger brother, then his younger sister. As for the other claimants, not much would change since that’s what they’re all fighting over now and Joffrey is officially a Baratheon. Stannis would only inherit if Joffrey and both of his siblings died OR were officially declared illegitimate (I’m not really sure who would make that official- the Grand Septon perhaps?), and since Stannis has been ruled a traitor his rights to succession could be set aside if there is a contender with a stronger army. Oh, right. I forgot about the younger siblings, who were put on a [del]bus[/del] ship back in season 1? or so. I also forgot that Joffrey was claiming the throne as a Baratheon, derp–the entire Lannister machine that supports him leaves me inevitably thinking of him as a Lannister (which, of course, he is). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/172 "2013-05-14T14:53:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The Starks are not going to get the girls back. The Lannisters only have Sansa and she is going to marry Tyrion. Littlefinger is the one who promised the exchange and he is quite willing to make empty promises. There is no reason to give Sansa back anyway once Jaime is back in Lannister territory. But there is : Jaime has promised he would fulfil his oath, and he won’t want to disappoint his new friend. He might just steal Sansa and upset everyone’s plans for her. Hand or no hand, Jaime always gets his way in the end, doesn’t he ? Also, the Lannisters always pay their debts, and Cat did free him. Or he could forget all about Brienne and fall back into his nihilistic, moral vacuum ways the morning after screwing Cersei, of course. But that would not be very good storytelling IMO. > [@](#): > > I never bought that Bolton let Jaime go for humanitarian reasons, I think the Boltons are plotting to betray the Starks and Jaime is a symbol of their good faith to the Lannisters. Who said anything about humanitarian reasons ? I thought it was quite clear to everyone that the Boltons were in it for a big fat sack of moolah. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/173 "2013-05-14T14:54:18Z")
Myrcella got shipped off to Dorne in a marriage arrangement to get their support and keep her out of harms way. Tomnen is still around. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/174 "2013-05-14T14:55:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Some of those I’ll admit are morally problematic, but I’d hear a motion to dismiss his attempt to kill Eddard Stark. He had motive to be p.o.d (Tyrion’s arrest- which he incorrectly but not unreasonably thought Ned was responsible for), and sticking up for Tyrion goes a long way. Not only that, but he pretty much called Ned out for a duel, which Ned accepted. Jamie stopped the fight after one of his men interfered and stabbed Ned in the leg. In an environment where dueling is quasi-legal, I think you’d have to grant that motion. You might even order the arrest of whichever faceless extra stabbed Ned from behind… ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/175 "2013-05-14T14:58:26Z")
Refresh my memory: Were the younger siblings legitimate, or were they also incestuous “bastards”? (Is there even a word for illegitimate offspring produced on the female side of the marriage?) ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/176 "2013-05-14T15:08:17Z")
They are all Jamie’s children. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/177 "2013-05-14T15:08:36Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …And Robb has a cute little boo-tay. Which we didn’t get to see nearly enough of. :mad: I’m getting tired of these scenes with men wearing clothes while naked women prance about. > [@Sampiro](#): > > …Westeros exists someplace other than Earth and yet they all have English accents. I think they need to bring on Tim Blake Nelson or Lucas Black or Donnie Wahlberg in just to throw some American regional accents into the mix. Well Westeros is basically a South America sized version of Great Britain. > [@clairobscur](#): > > The king is supposed to attend (Ned is surprised by the king’s absence in the first season) but neither Robert (except once) nor Joffrey have cared to do so. Isn’t Joffrey still a minor? Normally the Hand of the King is the king’s chief advisor/2nd-in-command, and since Joffrey’s underage Cersei is, at least on paper, the regent of the 7 Kingdoms as she keeps reminding people. Tywin is more powerful than a regular hand because of his grandson’s youth and the fact that he’s bankrolling the government. > [@Sampiro](#): > > …Of course the first time he approached the throne with his grandson on it (last episode of last season) he was on horseback on a horse that had just dropped off a load of apples. I think the horse shitting was just a horse being a horse. Other than that whole thing was pure ceremony, even the “spontaneous” marriage proposal Joffrey got from the Tyrells. > [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > It doesn’t seem especially surprising that the women were amused by Theon’s plight… Plus we’ve seen how prostitutes (which those girls obviously were) get treated in Westeros. > [@Sampiro](#): > > …The seven worship is reflected in lots of subtle ways. Notice that the stars in the palace at King’s Landing and elsewhere are seven pointed, the priest (including the one ripped apart in the riot) is called a _Sept_on and one of the whores servicing Theon mentioned her training to be a _sept_a (something like a nun devoted to The Seven). It’s a cool way of working it into lots of scenes. I think the septas are more like priestesses than nuns. The seem to have equal authority with septons, though I don’t know if there’s ever been such a thing as a High Septa. The clergy is the only acceptable alternative to marriage for well born girls though (men of course can join the Kingsguard, train as maesters, or join the Night’s Watch as well as joining the clergy). > [@LawMonkey](#): > > Ah yes, that does sound sort of vaguely familiar. I get the impression that its importance for the vast majority of Westerosi is roughly equivalent to the role of religion in modern western life, rather than the all-dominating force that it was in the actual Middle Ages. The Faith of the Seven doesn’t appear to have nearly as much power as the Catholic Church did during the Middle Ages. At least 2 of the 7 realms have other, very different, dominant religions and Ned Stark was able occupy one of the highest offices in the land despite being a pagan. > [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > …The Seven are the “new” Gods worshipped in the South, by people like the Tullys and Lannisters. The Old Gods are the one who involve tree faces, and are worshipped in the North by the Starks and kin. Do all the Starks follow the Old Gods though? I know Ned did (as do most Northerners), but Catelyn very clearly follows the Seven and I was under the impression that she raised her children in that faith. Witness Septa Mordane being the children’s governess or Robb & Talisa being married by a septon. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Next in line would be his younger brother, then his younger sister… Does the Iron Throne actually follow the same rules of male-preference primogeniture as the feudal titles though? I was under the impression that it followed semi-Salic law (women can only inherit upon the _complete_ extinction of the male line) in which case Stannis would follow Tommen, not Myrcella, but Daenerys would still inherit any Targaryen claims to the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/178 "2013-05-14T15:10:39Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Refresh my memory: Were the younger siblings legitimate, or were they also incestuous “bastards”? (Is there even a word for illegitimate offspring produced on the female side of the marriage?) They’re all Jaime:Cersei productions. Robert’s only child by Cersei died in infancy. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/179 "2013-05-14T15:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] Does the Iron Throne actually follow the same rules of male-preference primogeniture as the feudal titles though? I was under the impression that it followed semi-Salic law (women can only inherit upon the _complete_ extinction of the male line) in which case Stannis would follow Tommen, not Myrcella, but Daenerys would still inherit any Targaryen claims to the throne. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure if it’s been answered how complete it would need to be. Sansa is considered the heiress to the North should Robb die, but there really aren’t any more Starks who aren’t on the Night’s Watch, missing, believed dead, illegitimate, or some combination thereof. It’s not really clear if she’d still be the heiress if Ned had a legitimate/available brother or nephew. (The Kar-starks are distantly related but they’re apparently out of the succession equation.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162/180 "2013-05-14T15:23:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It’s also very plausible that the difference is that Ros grew up and learned about the world in the outskirts of Winterfell where, even as a whore, one imagines that some amount of the ethics and worldview of the Starks trickled down to her, whereas these two whores, as far as we know, grew up in the land of evil torturing freaks. Also, these two could be drug addicts, or the Westeros equivalent, with the torturer as their supplier. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-07-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-5-12-13-no-book-spoilers/658162.md?page=10)