# Game of Thrones 3.08 "Second Sons" 5/19/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 19, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757 "2013-05-19T20:31:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/181 "2013-05-24T09:35:19Z")
How big was Xerxes’ army at Thermopylae? 100,000? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/182 "2013-05-24T10:21:44Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Walking upwards of 1500 miles on foot without any rations would take years. Decades even. I’d assume they could forage and get food from peasants one way or another. But your time is a huge overestimate. Average human walking pace is say 3 mph, so let’s say 24 miles a day (assuming enough time for resting, eating etc) - that gives you 2 and a bit months to cover 1500 miles. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/183 "2013-05-24T10:23:35Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I didn’t really get the idea that Westeros was as big as the books apparently made it out to be if Ros can just hop on the back of a turnip cart and end up at King’s Landing in less than 1 year’s time. t. If I’m not mistaken, she tells Theon that she’s going (on the cart) to a port from where she’ll be going to King’s Landing by sea. Presumably, a ship will be faster than a turnip cart. Anyway, it seems to me that the show makers let us deliberatly in the dark regarding distances and time. I noted with surprise that during the last episode Danny mentioned she has had her dragons for a year and her army for two weeks. That was the first clear indication I had about how much time had passed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/184 "2013-05-24T10:37:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m more puzzled by the scope of the armies involved : Robb is said to have 20.000 men, that is a _massive_ force by medieval standards and yet they make it sound like it’s a pitiful band without much hope of achieving anything. By comparison, the force that seized Jerusalem (the first time around, anyway) was half that size, it was an epic siege by the standards of these times, and an army made up of soldiers hailing from the four corners of Christendom. Yeah, but the _losing_ side at Agincourt had 30 000 men by one estimate. Of course, the winning side had 6 000. Numbers aren’t the only thing to make a band pitiful 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/185 "2013-05-24T11:53:26Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > …she doesn’t know as much about the Lord of Light as she thinks, given how surprised she was by the guy who keeps getting raised from the dead)… None of the characters seem to question what this “Lord of Light” is, whether it’s a force for good or evil. They’re just happy that it gets stuff done, and therefore decide it must be the “True God”. Has anybody else thought of a possible parallel between the “Lord of Light” and Lucifer? The name Lucifer meaning “Light-Bringer” and all? That’s what occurred to me when I first heard about the “Lord of Light”. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/186 "2013-05-24T12:21:03Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > [Game of Thrones Facebook Recap, Season 3, Episode 8.](http://www.happyplace.com/24039/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-8) Thanks for a really funny link. Started the day nicely. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/187 "2013-05-24T13:38:43Z")
Weirdness. This thread is causing Internet Explorer to crash for some reason. Anyone else having this issue? May be an ad thing, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/188 "2013-05-24T13:43:22Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Has anybody else thought of a possible parallel between the “Lord of Light” and Lucifer? The name Lucifer meaning “Light-Bringer” and all? That’s what occurred to me when I first heard about the “Lord of Light”. Me too. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/189 "2013-05-24T13:54:21Z")
> [@solost](#): > > None of the characters seem to question what this “Lord of Light” is, whether it’s a force for good or evil. They’re just happy that it gets stuff done, and therefore decide it must be the “True God”. Has anybody else thought of a possible parallel between the “Lord of Light” and Lucifer? The name Lucifer meaning “Light-Bringer” and all? That’s what occurred to me when I first heard about the “Lord of Light”. Except it in some ways it’s more like Christianity: a monotheistic religion coming from the East and appealing to slaves and soldiers and working it’s way up to kings. I don’t know Martin’s religious background but I’m guessing he’s currently irreligious (though I don’t know that). One of my favorite things about his works is that just as you can see allusions to the Wars of the Roses/Crusades/Alexander the Great/Arthurian legends/other medeival and ancient historical events and literature in the military and social plotlines, you can see him drawing inspiration from Roman paganism, Zoroastrianism, early Christianity, Celtic practices, Mithraism and other sources for his religious plotlines. I don’t think there really is a “good religion v. evil religion”- they’re all kind of mish-mash. Though the Lord of Light is definitely the one whose high ups have the most supernatural power at the moment (assuming the power’s not coming from the individuals [Melisandre and Thoros]). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/190 "2013-05-24T14:42:30Z")
I for one would like GoT a lot more if it didn’t have the supernatural elements. The real fun for me is the scheming and plotting of the royals, and the absolute directness with which it portrays the human misery and horror of some aspects of medieval life, instead of giving it the usual Hollywood gloss. The magical elements seem almost silly and beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/191 "2013-05-24T15:03:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I for one would like GoT a lot more if it didn’t have the supernatural elements. The real fun for me is the scheming and plotting of the royals, and the absolute directness with which it portrays the human misery and horror of some aspects of medieval life, instead of giving it the usual Hollywood gloss. The magical elements seem almost silly and beside the point. I disagree, i think without the supernatural threat there is really no point at all to the machinations. It doesn’t matter one bit who ends up on the Iron Throne, it doesn’t affect 99.99% of the population at all, but the seven kingdoms descending into war and chaos while the threat of the ancient evil race leading zombie armies is looming is a much better story. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/192 "2013-05-24T17:03:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I for one would like GoT a lot more if it didn’t have the supernatural elements. The real fun for me is the scheming and plotting of the royals, and the absolute directness with which it portrays the human misery and horror of some aspects of medieval life, instead of giving it the usual Hollywood gloss. The magical elements seem almost silly and beside the point. I see where you’re coming from, but while I’m not super-fond of some of the magic (e.g. the chain-raise dead, the shadow babies… basically much of the “high magic”. I wish that aspect of the world’s magic be more like Mirri Maz Dur’s, more ambiguous. Could be a miracle/spell, could be conjurers tricks and bullshit, that sort of thing.) I find the threat posed by dragons and ice necromancers to put even more of a cynical and petty spin on the machinations of the royals ; as well as the plight of the people in a “who cares about who’s the proper heir to the throne, get organized yesterday or die, you sons of mothers !” kind of way. I guess a mundane grand threat lurking just beyond everyone’s sights and poised to murder and rape on a Biblical scale would fit the same bill, but then again it’s hard to get more sinister than ice necromancers who can shatter steel by touch and proto-nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/193 "2013-05-24T17:25:30Z")
Remember that the unnamed world of Westeros, Essos & any other continents is not Earth. So, how do you define Supernatural? (No, not “two underwear-model brothers who hallucinate and shoot at ghosts.”) Dragons were real animals, supposedly extinct. Did the magical elements of the funeral pyre hatch the eggs–or was it the heat? We know that seasons are different there. Are the White Walkers just another weird species that stayed scarce so long that most folks (south of The Wall) forget about them? They can be killed by obsidian knives–let’s hope Sam has some extras! The ceremonial magic is more problematic. Are any gods “real”? Or is it just conjuring–manipulating forces that exist there but not on Earth? There’s much to be revealed. And I’m not dropping any hints. I want to see some of the non-“faith-oriented” folks try to figure things out. Once they realize there’s more going on than their fight over that uncomfortable chair… ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/194 "2013-05-24T18:54:02Z")
> [@solost](#): > > None of the characters seem to question what this “Lord of Light” is, whether it’s a force for good or evil. They’re just happy that it gets stuff done, and therefore decide it must be the “True God”. Has anybody else thought of a possible parallel between the “Lord of Light” and Lucifer? The name Lucifer meaning “Light-Bringer” and all? That’s what occurred to me when I first heard about the “Lord of Light”. I’m going to be irritated if GRRM makes a Satan/Lord of Light link explicit. I don’t want this story to be an allegorical Earth, like freaking Narnia. I want it to be it’s own world, that sure, look a lot like Medieval Earth, but isn’t. In fact, all the comparisons between our world and theirs kind of bug me. I just start from the premise that everything is different there; the fundamental rules may be different. It helps me with suspension of disbelief (although I recognize other people enjoy the show differently). All that said, however, I do not think the Lord of Light is a good deity, the way we think of the Christian god as being good. It’s an asshole god, like the Roman gods were. I think that’s compelling though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/195 "2013-05-24T19:02:05Z")
My own working theory is that there will never be any explanation of what might be divine or what might be magical and that there will be no solid confirmation regarding the validity of any particular deity. I think that while we have seen some instances of supernatural phenomena we won’t ever know the actual cause. Melisandre and Beric might believe that these are confirmations of their beliefs, but it will not be clear whether they’re right or whether those two just happened to tap into the same vein of magic that others have. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/196 "2013-05-24T19:34:45Z")
I think it’s from the midichlorians in their blood. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/197 "2013-05-27T01:50:03Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I think it would be very silly to CGI leeches when the real ones are harmless, but who knows. Also, pulling them off ain’t that easy. . > [@Kobal2](#): > > In other news : hand up, any man who didn’t wince upon witnessing a leech being ripped right from Gendry’s forging hammer ? Didn’t think so. Yeeeaouch. Even if they did come off surprisingly easy - aren’t leeches supposed to suck on like crazy and basically rip the muscle should one try and pull them away without killing/burning them first ? > [@bump](#): > > Let’s put a leech on the end of your dong and rip it off several minutes later, and see how you react? > > I was surprised that Stannis and Davos just kind of stood there and didn’t even make a face or anything. Actually this is all sort of wrong, as was Gendry’s expression of pain. Leeches don’t hurt (they anesthetize first) and don’t go deep at all. They’re easy to remove as well, though usually you want to gently slide your finger under them, not yank them away. This was Hollywood bullshit for the most part, though that’s not to say that leeches aren’t squicky and gross. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/198 "2013-05-27T04:04:35Z")
Maybe Westerosi leeches are different. _Probably_ Westerosi leeches are different. > [@LawMonkey](#): > > Weirdness. This thread is causing Internet Explorer to crash for some reason. Anyone else having this issue? May be an ad thing, I suppose. No problem for me. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/199 "2013-05-27T04:19:52Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Actually this is all sort of wrong, as was Gendry’s expression of pain. Leeches don’t hurt (they anesthetize first) and don’t go deep at all. They’re easy to remove as well, though usually you want to gently slide your finger under them, not yank them away. This was Hollywood bullshit for the most part, though that’s not to say that leeches aren’t squicky and gross. When we were kids we’d catch leeches for the fun of it my sticking our hand into the water of a creek, let the attach to our hands, lift em out, pick em off your hand and throw em in a bucket. If it hurt in any way we wouldnt do it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757/200 "2013-05-27T04:48:42Z")
If I was half naked, tied up, had a blood sucking leech on my todger, and had a creepy woman removing it with a prong, I would howl too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-08-second-sons-5-19-13-no-book-spoilers/658757.md?page=11)