# Game of Thrones 3.09 "The Rains of Castamere" 6/2/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972 "2013-06-02T20:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/221 "2013-06-03T23:10:59Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > SO if Edmure was also killed (we don’t know yet) then Lysa is heir to Riverrun or does it go down to another level, Bran or Lysa’s son? The succession as I believe it– Edmure Catelyn Robb Bran Rickon Sansa Arya Lysa Robert Brynden ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/222 "2013-06-03T23:12:15Z")
[Poor, poor Jorah](http://i.imgur.com/GhzRApw.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/223 "2013-06-03T23:24:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The boy’s _seen things_ you people wouldn’t believe… attack horses in a spiral off the Fist of the First Men… He’s seen blue eyes glitter in the dark at Castle Black’s Gate… Beautiful. (And that’s the only thing this show is missing – Roy Batty.) Jon said Ygritte’s name as she was preparing to shoot the horse man. Did she miss on purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/224 "2013-06-03T23:27:33Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > [Poor, poor Jorah](http://i.imgur.com/GhzRApw.jpg) Nice Simpsons reference! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/225 "2013-06-03T23:29:19Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > FYI, This was your 5,000th post. Did balloons and confetti drop from the ceiling after you hit Submit or anything? Browser crashed. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/226 "2013-06-03T23:34:40Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > SO if Edmure was also killed (we don’t know yet) then Lysa is heir to Riverrun or does it go down to another level, Bran or Lysa’s son? > [@Acsenray](#): > > The succession as I believe it– > Edmure > Catelyn > Robb > Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya > Lysa > Robert > Brynden Riverrun is House _Tully_, not Stark or Arryn (yes, I know Catelyn and Lysa are Tullys, but they’re them there _fe_males, y’see, and their issue is not Tully at all). Pending survival of the Red Wedding, Edmure is Lord, or the Blackfish if Edmure is dead. If both are dead and there are no surviving male heirs, it would seem to me succession would pass to Lysa, being a living (albeit insane) Tully. ---
**Author:** ![RainGrowsBrite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RainGrowsBrite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RainGrowsBrite)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/227 "2013-06-03T23:39:31Z")
So where was Admiral Ackbar when Rob Stark needed him?!? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/228 "2013-06-03T23:44:57Z")
> [@Just\_Ed](#): > > Riverrun is House _Tully_, not Stark or Arryn (yes, I know Catelyn and Lysa are Tullys, but they’re them there _fe_males, y’see, and their issue is not Tully at all). It hasn’t been definitively stated, but I believe that in most of Westeros is by male-preference primogeniture, in which case the succession would be as I have described it. What you’re describing is Salic succession, and we have no reason to believe that that’s how it works in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/229 "2013-06-03T23:48:43Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Beautiful. > > (And that’s the only thing this show is missing – Roy Batty.) > > Jon said Ygritte’s name as she was preparing to shoot the horse man. Did she miss on purpose? He distracted her aim is what I think. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/230 "2013-06-03T23:55:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It hasn’t been definitively stated, but I believe that in most of Westeros is by male-preference primogeniture, in which case the succession would be as I have described it. > > What you’re describing is Salic succession, and we have no reason to believe that that’s how it works in Westeros. Not trying to be argumentative, but I don’t think we have reason to believe _either_ case. I was basing my guess partly on Cersei’s ramblings regarding females constantly being ignored, and the general sense that _family name_ seems to be of major importance in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/231 "2013-06-04T00:04:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > He distracted her aim is what I think. I also like how he subtly struck his sword against a rock to warn the horses (and by extension, the old man.) ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/232 "2013-06-04T00:21:29Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Is there a process by which someone may be released with honor from this oath? Technically no, but then again there is a guy named “The Kingslayer” serving in the King’s Guard, so with the right connections it might be workable. People would still think you were a dick, but you could probably get some sort of special discharge if the right king commanded it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/233 "2013-06-04T00:22:04Z")
> [@Just\_Ed](#): > > Not trying to be argumentative, but I don’t think we have reason to believe _either_ case. I was basing my guess partly on Cersei’s ramblings regarding females constantly being ignored, and the general sense that _family name_ seems to be of major importance in Westeros. If there was no inheritance through daughters then marrying powerful men’s daughters would not be a common bargaining chip. Sansa has any cache at all because she is now – so far as anyone knows – the heir to Winterfell. And people on Westeros speak of their family name just as British families did and they were not Salic. Part of the reasons why sons are important is that there is a real possibility of the family name going extinct if succession goes to your daughter. Most important, if tradition is Salic then Daenerys would never be taken seriously. Once her brothers are dead, she’s no threat. Remember, Robert feared her son before he heard about dragons. As I said, none of this is definitive, biiy the case for this kind if succession is far stronger than it is for Salic succession. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/234 "2013-06-04T00:24:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which is weird, because evidently there’s only two fukken songs in the entire kingdoms : the Bear and the Maiden Fair (the jaunty tune played just before) and the Rains of Castamere. Those are the only songs anybody ever plays or sings in the series :). One would assume they just played both on a loop throughout the wedding :p. We heard Sam sing a lullaby about how the gods love the little children, and we heard Sansa sing a different hymn to calm the ladies down during the Battle of Blackwater. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/235 "2013-06-04T00:38:17Z")
Tywin told Tyrion that he will never be lord of Casterley Rock even though Jaime can’t inherit, implying it will either go to one of Cersei’s children (either the ones she has now or if she marries/has issue with Loras) or to Tywin’s brother, so apparently a lord (at least a very powerful one) can choose an heir and isn’t completely bound by inheritance laws. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/236 "2013-06-04T00:43:02Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > apparently a lord (at least a very powerful one) can choose an heir and isn’t completely bound by inheritance laws. When Stannis met with Renly he offered terms of surrender to Renly, saying that he would even name him his heir, until a son was born to him. I’m not sure thatis the same thing, though, what with Renly already being next in line of succession if they plan to keep that law. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/237 "2013-06-04T00:47:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Walder Frey joined an open rebellion against the throne and Tywin Lannister. Tywin Lannister has a song about him in which he murders every member of an opposing family. He risked everything he had in exchange for some respect and the chance that his grandson would be a king. Robb took both those things away. Not trying to condone the horrible way the Freys dealt with being wronged, but this post really does illustrate just how serious Robb’s insult to them was. The Freys risked a lot by supporting Robb. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/238 "2013-06-04T00:50:01Z")
The obvious lesson here is: don’t follow your heart. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/239 "2013-06-04T00:52:16Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Tywin told Tyrion that he will never be lord of Casterley Rock even though Jaime can’t inherit, implying it will either go to one of Cersei’s children (either the ones she has now or if she marries/has issue with Loras) or to Tywin’s brother, so apparently a lord (at least a very powerful one) can choose an heir and isn’t completely bound by inheritance laws. I believe Tywin was taking a “damn the law” attitude. There was in real history a way to disinherit “unsuitable” children and I’m pretty sure a physical defect like Tyrion’s would be accepted as a valid disqualification. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/240 "2013-06-04T00:56:34Z")
Frey had been a lifelong complete opportunist. It was mentioned in the first episode where he was seen that at the Battle of the Trident (where Robert Barratheon won the crown by defeating the last of the Targaryen armies) Frey’s men did not arrive until the battle was over, at which time they declared themselves loyal Barratheon subjects of course. It wasn’t just pride that would make him change sides. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=13)