# Game of Thrones 3.09 "The Rains of Castamere" 6/2/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972 "2013-06-02T20:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/441 "2013-06-06T03:09:26Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Of course you wouldn’t. You seem completely incapable of empathy … has no understanding of the concept of context. which ironically, highlights one of the uglier characteristics of the extreme who are hung up on honour and morality. Ned, who beheaded a guy for running from the undead, and in turn lost his own to give fair warning to an enemy. Robb, who lost half his army, and thus the war, for the death of two prisoners. Cat, who started the war (which ended up killing Ned and Robb and placing the lives of her entire family in peril) because of a single piece of evidence. **mr. jp** may be insane for picking on the death of the Frey girl of all things, but it is an insanity he shares with the Starks. ---
**Author:** ![jrepka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@jrepka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jrepka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/442 "2013-06-06T03:10:02Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > No, the kidnapping caused the war. Tywin told Cersei he started a war over “that lecherous little imp” so what did she think he would do over Jamie. Beheading Ned ended any chance of a peace settlement, but did not start the war. That’s from Tywin’s perspective, I suppose. Can we keep in mind that Cat’s son had been pushed from the top of a tall tower by Jamie (though she didn’t know that part at the time) and she’d been assured by Littlefinger (yeah, not too smart to trust him either) that the assassin who came to finish Bran off was carrying Tyrion’s knife. Yeah, kidnapping Tyrion wasn’t the most strategic move, but if we’re looking for a single event that triggered what has happened in the show since (always a fool’s errand), we can go all the way back to the final scene in the pilot when Jamie shoved Bran out of a window so no one would discover that he was fucking his sister. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/443 "2013-06-06T03:21:16Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Jaime flippantly tossed a 10 year old out a window to die, then immediately made a joke about it with a smile on his face. His joke may have actually been voiced before Brann even hit the ground. > > Cat had JUST sworn a blood oath that if Robb were set free all would be forgiven but if not she would kill the wife. Robb was not set free, so Cat carried out her oath, in a screaming fit of incomprehensible rage and grief. > > That you consider these acts equivalent is truly remarkable. The only reasons I can think of is just to be contrary, so that you can feel like you are the smartest person in the room who sees what nobody else sees, or maybe you don’t actually understand humans. Either way, it’s pretty embarrassing. I think it is remarkable that you consider Jaime’s worse. Jaime would be dead if he didn’t kill Bran, Cat’s killing achieved nothing. Jaime’s was self defense, Cat’s was desperation / rage. I think it is clear that Cat’s killing was worse. If the problem is that she had to keep her oath, then she shouldn’t have made the oath to start with. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/444 "2013-06-06T03:52:30Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Of course you wouldn’t. You seem completely incapable of empathy. This is a woman who had her husband wrongly beheaded, believes all but one of her other children dead and the other in control of the people who killed her husband. Her last, and eldest, is, at the moment, being betrayed (yes, he broke an oath, but the proper way to deal with an oathbreaker isn’t this way) and brutally murdered. So, yeah, she might be reacting in the most moral fashion. But I’m sure you would. :rolleyes: > > Maybe he just has no understanding of the concept of context. So you think I am devoid of empathy because I don’t want to kill an innocent girl for no gain? Are you rolling your eyes at my claim that I wouldn’t kill her? I have never killed anyone, I don’t even know if I could if I thought it was the right decision. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/445 "2013-06-06T04:15:34Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > which ironically, highlights one of the uglier characteristics of the extreme who are hung up on honour and morality. Ned, who beheaded a guy for running from the undead, and in turn lost his own to give fair warning to an enemy. Robb, who lost half his army, and thus the war, for the death of two prisoners. Cat, who started the war (which ended up killing Ned and Robb and placing the lives of her entire family in peril) because of a single piece of evidence. > > **mr. jp** may be insane for picking on the death of the Frey girl of all things, but it is an insanity he shares with the Starks. Robb had been winning since the start of the war. The new wife was taking his heart out of the battle and the Iron Islanders fucking up the north were slowing their progress, but were they losing? The Karstarks departure was a blow in terms of numbers but the Frey troops were going to shore up that hole. Was the Castlerey Rock gambit meant to be seen as a desperation move on his part? I did not get that impression. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/446 "2013-06-06T04:19:30Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I think it is remarkable that you consider Jaime’s worse. Jaime would be dead if he didn’t kill Bran, Cat’s killing achieved nothing. Jaime’s was self defense, Cat’s was desperation / rage. I think it is clear that Cat’s killing was worse. If the problem is that she had to keep her oath, then she shouldn’t have made the oath to start with. Maybe Jaime shouldn’t have been fucking his sister to start with? ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/447 "2013-06-06T04:20:15Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Maybe Jaime shouldn’t have been fucking his sister to start with? You can’t choose who you love. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/448 "2013-06-06T04:38:41Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > … Was the Castlerey Rock gambit meant to be seen as a desperation move on his part? I did not get that impression. he has lost his home base and half his strength. he is stranded and weakened in enemy territory. his plan needed him to beg the Freys for forgiveness to even have a remote chance of success. and there is no plan B. if it failed he would be sandwiched between Tywin’s forces and the sea. it’s do or die. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/449 "2013-06-06T05:53:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > We don’t know that. There are theories that Jon is actually the son of Lyanna and Raegar. Beyond that, Ned never actually said Jon was his and pointedly avoided answering any direct question on the subject. There is precisely zero evidence in the show to suggest that is the case. Lyanna has not been mentioned even once since season 1 and Rhaegar the rapist perhaps twice. There is a lot more evidence that Jon is what is claimed, Ned’s son. Hell you could be forgiven for thinking that “Ned Starks Bastard” is his real name. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/450 "2013-06-06T06:25:13Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Robb had been winning since the start of the war. The new wife was taking his heart out of the battle and the Iron Islanders fucking up the north were slowing their progress, but were they losing? The Karstarks departure was a blow in terms of numbers but the Frey troops were going to shore up that hole. > > Was the Castlerey Rock gambit meant to be seen as a desperation move on his part? I did not get that impression. > [@shijinn](#): > > he has lost his home base and half his strength. he is stranded and weakened in enemy territory. his plan needed him to beg the Freys for forgiveness to even have a remote chance of success. and there is no plan B. if it failed he would be sandwiched between Tywin’s forces and the sea. it’s do or die. I think the truth is somewhere in between. His plan was like the Allied invasion of Normandy. He had been winning the war, but the Lannisters were now in a defensive posture that they could have held onto indefinitely without some bold and decisive action by Robb’s army to force their hand. His forces were weakened, but still strong enough to maintain the status quo. The problem was, the status quo kinda sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/451 "2013-06-06T07:08:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Also : > > - Ned outlawed flayings in the North > - Treated Theon, his hostage, as well as his own sons, taught him to fight and so on > - Threatened to resign as Hand if the Council went ahead with the planned murder of Daenerys > - Warned Cersei that he was about to blow the lid on the incest thing, so that she’d have an honourable out and/or hasty retreat while she still could > - Kat refused to let Lysa just throw Tyrion down the Eyries’ pit (though that one is less benevolent than practical) > - Wouldn’t let Brienne commit suicide-by-guard > - Robb let Talysa patch up the Lannister wounded, using up his own army’s supplies in the process (whether that was compassion or trying to get in her pants is left as an exercise to the reader) > - Arya gave Jaqen et al. an axe so they wouldn’t burn alive, even though she was scared of them (one had even threatened to rape and kill her) > > As for Jon, he’s just a huge softie all around. Wouldn’t lose his virginity for fear of birthing a bastard, defended Sam from the bullies, spared Ygritte… does that thing with his tongue, too. Yeah, but but… Robb broke an _oath_! An oath I say! That makes the Starks \*worse \*than the Lannisters! How can you even put tiny things like murder, rape & torture up there with _oathbreaking_!? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/452 "2013-06-06T09:29:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > There is precisely zero evidence in the show to suggest that is the case. Lyanna has not been mentioned even once since season 1 and Rhaegar the rapist perhaps twice. There is a lot more evidence that Jon is what is claimed, Ned’s son. Hell you could be forgiven for thinking that “Ned Starks Bastard” is his real name. There’s exactly as much evidence as that suggesting that it isn’t. The known facts are that Ned came back from the war with a babby in tow, that he wanted raised as if it was family. That’s it. Nobody knows who the mother is, nobody even remembers him being with a woman at all on the war trail, not even his old war buddy who could only wager that she must have been hot to make Eddard Stark forget about his precious honour (to which Ned pointedly remained silent). There’s also the fact that Jon’s hair is raven black, while Ned’s got brown hair along with Robb, Arya, Bran and Rickon. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/453 "2013-06-06T11:08:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > There is precisely zero evidence in the show to suggest that is the case. Lyanna has not been mentioned even once since season 1 and Rhaegar the rapist perhaps twice. There is small evidence, admittedly, but non-zero. Add in the fact that Barristan Selmy (by all evidence an upstanding and honest guy) sang Rhaegar’s praises to Dany and Jorah early this season, saying what a great guy he was, with no mention of him being a rapist. (granted, not the sort of thing you bring up to someone’s sister, but if you know a guy is a rapist, you don’t have to overpraise him like Selmy did.) ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/454 "2013-06-06T11:10:23Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > 1. He’s protecting the identity of BOTH parents , for reasons similar to #1, except that Ned wasn’t the father, but rather was sheltering the child for the sake of the (probably) illicit couple. This would also be the case if it turned out that Benjen Stark was Jon’s father, which would have indicated that Benjen had broken his vows and would be sentenced to death. Benjen didn’t join the Night’s Watch until after Robert’s Rebellion (basically once Robb was born and he was no longer the heir), so parenting a child would have been embarrassing but not life threatening. Same for Ned’s older brother and father, who both died a few months prior to Jon being born. Ned’s sister would have died at roughly the same time Jon was born. Jon being the son of any of them would qualify as “having [Ned’s] blood.” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/455 "2013-06-06T11:22:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > not even his old war buddy who could only wager that she must have been hot to make Eddard Stark forget about his precious honour (to which Ned pointedly remained silent). I remember that now that you point it out. I find this compelling, since at the time I thought Ned’s reaction was off somehow. Add in the other points you bring up and I’m convinced. > [@mr.jp](#): > > I think it is remarkable that you consider Jaime’s worse. Jaime would be dead if he didn’t kill Bran, Cat’s killing achieved nothing. Jaime’s was self defense, Cat’s was desperation / rage. I think it is clear that Cat’s killing was worse. If the problem is that she had to keep her oath, then she shouldn’t have made the oath to start with. Yes, I am rolling my eyes at you, Dr Sheldon Cooper. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/456 "2013-06-06T11:41:29Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Yeah, but but… Robb broke an _oath_! An oath I say! That makes the Starks \*worse \*than the Lannisters! How can you even put tiny things like murder, rape & torture up there with _oathbreaking_!? Not only that, Robb’s mother _kept_ her oath as a Stark and a Tully to kill that woman if her son was killed. Making her even _worser_ than Robb and all the Lannisters and Freys too. Because if there is anything worse than an oathbreaker and-- let’s face it, there isn’t-- it’s an oathkeeper ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/457 "2013-06-06T14:15:02Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > not even his old war buddy who could only wager that she must have been hot to make Eddard Stark forget about his precious honour (to which Ned pointedly remained silent). > > I remember that now that you point it out. I find this compelling, since at the time I thought Ned’s reaction was off somehow. Add in the other points you bring up and I’m convinced. I had the same reaction. Ned is presented as a person of such high honor that he’d probably have cut his own naughty bits off before he’d fool around with a lowborn woman … especially during his best friend’s war. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/458 "2013-06-06T15:25:43Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I think it is remarkable that you consider Jaime’s worse. **Jaime would be dead if he didn’t kill Bran** , Cat’s killing achieved nothing. Jaime’s was self defense, Cat’s was desperation / rage. I think it is clear that Cat’s killing was worse. If the problem is that she had to keep her oath, then she shouldn’t have made the oath to start with. (Bolding mine.) For Jaime and Cersei to be punished for what Bran saw, Bran would have had to understand what he saw and convince people it was what it was. Jaime could have talked his way out of it, but he didn’t take time to think. “Fucking my sister? My sister?! Kid’s been spending too much time in the farmyard.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/459 "2013-06-06T15:27:45Z")
Concerning the Red Wedding scene again–I was wondering how realistic the throat-slittings were. Would people really just kind if immediately go faint-to-unconscious the moment the cut was made? Or would they reach up and grab their neck and stumble around in a conscious panic for some number of seconds first? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/460 "2013-06-06T15:40:58Z")
I think throat cutting would be more spurty, less fountainy. And they’d be conscious for at least a few seconds and probably flail around a bit. It’s believable that Cat didn’t, because she was basically catatonic at that point, but it seemed like it was lights out for everyone. It would actually be more gruesome if we got some struggling and some gurgling noises. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=24)