# Game of Thrones 3.09 "The Rains of Castamere" 6/2/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972 "2013-06-02T20:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/461 "2013-06-06T15:43:11Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Concerning the Red Wedding scene again–I was wondering how realistic the throat-slittings were. Would people really just kind if immediately go faint-to-unconscious the moment the cut was made? Or would they reach up and grab their neck and stumble around in a conscious panic for some number of seconds first? Dunno about that, but I do know that the slitting followed by blood just oozing out is not how it goes. Arterial spray…well, _sprays_. I still remember the father of a friend telling us about his first night on call at the hospital. They had a throat cancer patient who’d just had surgery wake up in the middle of the night and come to the docs’ lounge to chat and pass the time. He said three words, the suture ruptured, they had to clean the _ceiling_. I guess a completely severed artery would exert less pressure than that, but I’d still expect a bloody mess. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/462 "2013-06-06T15:43:55Z")
Maybe if you’re stressed and your heart rate is elevated, a slashed throat will cause rapid exsanguination, causing you to lose consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/463 "2013-06-06T15:44:25Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Concerning the Red Wedding scene again–I was wondering how realistic the throat-slittings were. Would people really just kind if immediately go faint-to-unconscious the moment the cut was made? Or would they reach up and grab their neck and stumble around in a conscious panic for some number of seconds first? [Funny you should ask…](http://www.tmz.com/2013/06/03/game-of-thrones-throat-cutting-oj-simpson-witness-michael-baden/) ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/464 "2013-06-06T17:12:44Z")
> [@Reverse](#): > > You can’t choose who you love. Yes, but you can choose who you fuck. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/465 "2013-06-06T17:32:00Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I don’t mean to be “that guy” but one of the major takeaways from GoT is that there is no absolute good and no absolute evil. Everybody is flawed and what ends up happening isn’t always what’s right. Debating whether the Starks are better than the Lannisters isn’t just debating semantics - it defies one of the major “lessons” of the show/book. Both are by design flawed and both have - by design - redeeming features. I disagree. It’s certainly a theme of the book that morality isn’t always black and white. The Starks aren’t capital-H-Heroes and the Lannisters aren’t pure capital-V-Villains. At the same time, throwing up our hands and saying “they’re all equally bad” is like saying “well, some atrocities were committed by American soldiers during WWII, so really, all the sides were equal”. What WOULD be silly would be to assume that because the Starks are closer to being good guys (as they inarguably are, **mr. jp** ’s bizarre and unspportable claims to the contrary notwithstanding) that means that they will somehow come out on top just because of their innate goodness. Might makes right in the GoT universe as it does in our own, and people aren’t perfect, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is equally imperfect. Joffrey is a much much more evil person than Brienne. I’ll support that position to the death. And once you can make one such statement, you can make more, even if not all of them are that cut and dried. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/466 "2013-06-06T17:34:57Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Yes, but you can choose who you fuck. And if you can’t fuck the one you love, honey… ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/467 "2013-06-06T17:43:31Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Jaime’s was self defense, Cat’s was desperation / rage. You are clearly confusing self preservation with self defense. Two very different things. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/468 "2013-06-06T18:21:59Z")
Can I defend all my self-serving actions as self defense now? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/469 "2013-06-06T18:51:17Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I disagree. It’s certainly a theme of the book that morality isn’t always black and white. The Starks aren’t capital-H-Heroes and the Lannisters aren’t pure capital-V-Villains. At the same time, throwing up our hands and saying “they’re all equally bad” is like saying “well, some atrocities were committed by American soldiers during WWII, so really, all the sides were equal”. > > What WOULD be silly would be to assume that because the Starks are closer to being good guys (as they inarguably are, **mr. jp** ’s bizarre and unspportable claims to the contrary notwithstanding) that means that they will somehow come out on top just because of their innate goodness. Might makes right in the GoT universe as it does in our own, and people aren’t perfect, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is equally imperfect. > > Joffrey is a much much more evil person than Brienne. I’ll support that position to the death. And once you can make one such statement, you can make more, even if not all of them are that cut and dried. I like you. Let’s make out. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/470 "2013-06-06T18:58:30Z")
Is anyone else just skimming over the **mr. jp** vs. everybody posts? Clearly people have differing points of view on morality. Perhaps such a discussion would be better served in Great Debates. ‘Inspired by the discussion in [this thread], is it more moral to [blahblahblah]’, or something like that. Or to keep it in Cafe Society, how about a thread called ‘Compare the morals of the families of Westeros’? Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/471 "2013-06-06T19:31:23Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > So you think I am devoid of empathy because I don’t want to kill an innocent girl for no gain? No. There’s that inability to figure out context again. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/472 "2013-06-06T19:51:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Is anyone else just skimming over the **mr. jp** vs. everybody posts? > > Clearly people have differing points of view on morality. Perhaps such a discussion would be better served in Great Debates. ‘Inspired by the discussion in [this thread], is it more moral to [blahblahblah]’, or something like that. Or to keep it in Cafe Society, how about a thread called ‘Compare the morals of the families of Westeros’? > > Just sayin’. I kind of gave up the debate yesterday since I had to go to work but when I came back I saw other people took up the cause and I was amused by that. But it has become a bit too much of a “head vs brick wall” discussion and I think maybe a debate with Hodor about proper hodoring would be more productive. Hodor. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/473 "2013-06-06T19:54:15Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Yeah, but but… Robb broke an _oath_! An oath I say! That makes the Starks \*worse \*than the Lannisters! How can you even put tiny things like murder, rape & torture up there with _oathbreaking_!? The reason I talked about the oath breaking is that people claimed the Stark clan was better because they are honorable. I think this is an undeserved reputation, oath breaking is definitely not honorable. My problem with Robb is not so much that he broke an oath. It is that he does not really show any concern about the common folk. The Stark clan are at least partly responsible for the war, which is really caused by an internal conflicts between the two families. But he leads the war, forcing thousands of his subjects die for him. And how much does he care about that? I dont hear him talking about or considering those lives. In fact, the cause that so many subjects had to die for, he was fully willing to jeopardize so that he could get the girl he wanted. This shows that he rates his personal love live higher than the lifes of his subjects. Cat also has no problem with starting a war, or with killing innocents, if it furthers the cause of their house. Obviously the Lannisters have committed horrible deeds, and Im not saying they are better. But for the common people living in the kingdoms, this is a case of meet the new boss, same as the old boss. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/474 "2013-06-06T19:55:33Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > You are clearly confusing self preservation with self defense. Two very different things. Yes, it should be self preservation, not self defence. Point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/475 "2013-06-06T19:56:59Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > No. There’s that inability to figure out context again. I can figure out context. You should not kill an innocent girl UNLESS there is money in it for you! What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/476 "2013-06-06T20:41:06Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I definitely wouldnt have killed the girl > [@Yookeroo](#): > > Of course you wouldn’t. You seem completely incapable of empathy. This is a woman who had her husband wrongly beheaded, believes all but one of her other children dead and the other in control of the people who killed her husband. Her last, and eldest, is, at the moment, being betrayed (yes, he broke an oath, but the proper way to deal with an oathbreaker isn’t this way) and brutally murdered. So, yeah, she might be reacting in the most moral fashion. But I’m sure you would. :rolleyes: > [@Yookeroo](#): > > No. There’s that inability to figure out context again. So what were you saying in this post then? I can understand that I am incapable of empathy. And your rolleyes indicate that you doubt my claim that I wouldn’t kill the girl, don’t they? Or what? I think it’s you who lack empathy, unless you are presented with an actual backstory. Bran was presented as a character, a kid, and thus it’s a tragedy when he died. But we had no introduction to the Frey girl. Maybe if we had followed her for a while, and her life in the castle, her dreams and desires. Her 15 year old girl problems and questions. Maybe then you would have felt more sorry for her getting killed, for matters she wasn’t involved in, had no say about, and tried to hide from. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/477 "2013-06-06T20:46:44Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Benjen didn’t join the Night’s Watch until after Robert’s Rebellion (basically once Robb was born and he was no longer the heir), so parenting a child would have been embarrassing but not life threatening. Same for Ned’s older brother and father, who both died a few months prior to Jon being born. Ned’s sister would have died at roughly the same time Jon was born. Huh. I didn’t remember any of this FROM THE TELEVISION SHOW. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/478 "2013-06-06T20:59:59Z")
As one of the derailers, I apologize… so back to the episode. Gilly says somethihng like “My father said ‘no Wildling has ever gazed on the wall and lived’”–clearly not true but are Gilly’s family considered Wildlings? I thought they were the equivalent of homesteaders. Just wanted that clarified. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/479 "2013-06-06T21:20:04Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > As one of the derailers, I apologize… so back to the episode. > > Gilly says somethihng like “My father said ‘no Wildling has ever gazed on the wall and lived’”–clearly not true but are Gilly’s family considered Wildlings? I thought they were the equivalent of homesteaders. Just wanted that clarified. Everyone that lives north of the Wall is a wildling. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/480 "2013-06-06T21:21:37Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Obviously the Lannisters have committed horrible deeds, and Im not saying they are better. But for the common people living in the kingdoms, this is a case of meet the new boss, same as the old boss. There’s a lot of circumstantial evidence that says Robb would care vastly more for the common people than the Lannisters did. And there’s no evidence at all to say that he WOULDN’T, other than that he is in fact fighting a war. Basically, every good dead ascribed to the Starks in the last several pages are evidence of their empathy, that they are bothered by other people suffering, and try to avoid causing it. Granted, we may have never literally seen a conversation on-screen with Robb in which he says either “hey, let’s go burn that village just for shits and grins” or “oh dear me, let’s make sure to have this battle as far from all the farms as possible to avoid injuring the smallfolk”, but we can make some inferences from what we’ve seen of the way he and his family act in general, as compared to the Lannisters. As for Robb’s oathbreaking, it’s worth pointing out that once he fell in love with Talisa and boinked her, it would have been easy as hell for him to just keep her as his mistress, but it was his HONOR that caused him to marry her instead. Maybe not as honorable as not boinking her in the first place, but he only broke his oath when there were conflicting demands on his honor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=25)