# Game of Thrones 3.09 "The Rains of Castamere" 6/2/13 No book spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972 "2013-06-02T20:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/121 "2013-06-03T16:37:31Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > It started out ok when me and my brothers and sisters all got new Dire wolves for pets (Rob even got one!). …Rob was sent to take the black.. Psssst…that was Jon…otherwise, nice summary! ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/122 "2013-06-03T16:37:59Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Yeah, it’s been noted that the Yunkishmen (I think that’s what you call someone from Yunkai) are not a particularly martial people. They rely on mercenaries and slave soldiers, probably either Unsullied they bought pre-Astapor destruction or their own off brand generic Unsullied knock offs. The mercenaries already switched sides, it’s doubtful that the slave soldiers took much convincing to switch to team **Sexy Dragon Messiah Emancipation Squad** once the enemies were literally inside the walls. (emphasis added) This needs to be an animated series. So it occurs to me that Frey got revenge for the slight, and got in good with the Lannisters (well, “good” might be overstating it - they’ve at least reluctantly allied with him). BUT, what was Frey’s whole giant butthurt deal all along? People look down on his family and no one will marry his kids. Can you imagine any noble house respecting him now? And NO ONE is ever going to betroth their child to a Frey because they wouldn’t dream of attending a wedding at the Twins! Hell, people won’t even visit, since they can’t rely on the hospitality tradition to protect them. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/123 "2013-06-03T16:39:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I agree. I didn’t really feel that attached to Rob, he just wasn’t that interesting to me. But I did feel for poor Arya. And I knew something bad was going to happen, when The Hound said something about how Rob and Cat were still at the Twins and how she’d see them soon. I agree that Rob was a bore, but I’m really upset by his death because it means that the Starks have lost. Even if any of the surviving Starks come back to rebuild their clan, it’ll be years and years down the line. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/124 "2013-06-03T16:42:33Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Also, could Snow make a claim to the Stark legacy at this point? He was acknowledged as Eddards bastard son. Same as the leech kid is seen as a potential rival for the Iron Throne while being a bastard, Who said Gendry is a potential claimant? I don’t think there’s any chance of that. > [@](#): > > could Jon Snow as eldest son of Eddard Stark claim Winterfell–even with Bran and Ricon being alive? Or since everyone believes them dead-- could he stake it as his own. Or does Sansa as acknowledged child of Ned and Kat trump that. Bastard children like Jon do not have a claim period unless the father during his lifetime tries to legitimize him. And even that’s not necessarily going to work if there are any other possible heirs to contest it. > [@](#): > > Speaking of which.. how many direwolves are left? Bran and Ricons are near. Snow’s is shadowing Gilly and Sam… Arya’s was sent away in the first season and hasn’t been back right? Robb’s is dead Jon’s is alive Sansa’s is dead Arya’s hasn’t been seen in a long time Bran’s is alive Rickon’s is alive ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/125 "2013-06-03T16:44:43Z")
Jon was acknowledged but not _legitimized_–which is a thing occasionally done in Westeros. He’s still a bastard. Also, he gave up any family rights when he joined the Crows–like the Maester who was a Targaryan. On top of those reasons, he’d want to be damn sure both the younger Stark brothers and both the sisters were dead before he even thought about claiming any “rights.” I don’t think Gendry is seen as a potential heir, as an unacknowledged bastard with a tavern girl mother. He’s a source of royal blood. Direwolf status: Robb’s & Sansa’s are dead. Jon’s & the younger brothers’ two are alive. Arya’s has been missing for a very long time… ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/126 "2013-06-03T16:46:51Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > (emphasis added) > This needs to be an animated series. > > So it occurs to me that Frey got revenge for the slight, and got in good with the Lannisters (well, “good” might be overstating it - they’ve at least reluctantly allied with him). BUT, what was Frey’s whole giant butthurt deal all along? People look down on his family and no one will marry his kids. Can you imagine any noble house respecting him now? And NO ONE is ever going to betroth their child to a Frey because they wouldn’t dream of attending a wedding at the Twins! Hell, people won’t even visit, since they can’t rely on the hospitality tradition to protect them. I just rewatched 1.09 (“Baelor”, the one where Ned is killed and where Rob and Walder make their deal) and I really, really like Walder Frey. I mean I don’t /like/ him, I just think he’s really well done. He’s very shrewd and reminds me a lot of Tywin Lannister. Rewatching 1.09 the deal was: Walder Frey lets Rob cross and sends with him a few thousand (!) troops, keeping only a few hundred to defend his castle. So he was officially throwing his lot in with Rob and sending a few thousand of his men to fight and die for his war. In exchange he wanted one of his boys to become part of Rob’s entourage and be knighted, he wanted Arya to marry one of his sons, and he wanted Rob to marry one of his daughters. That was the price for his alliance. Frey is an evil cunt but really, Rob paid the price for his breaking of his oath. Frey could have thrown his lot in with the Lannisters for a wagon of gold at any time I’m assuming (he controls the only major river crossing, right? That’s important) but only did when Rob broke their deal. In the episode where Cat finds out about Rob’s new squeeze she warns him that if he goes back on his word so easily his men will do the same. She was right. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/127 "2013-06-03T16:50:31Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Hell, people won’t even visit, since they can’t rely on the hospitality tradition to protect them. Seems like Walder Frey doesn’t really like having visitors anyway. But mostly he wants to be treated like he’s a big deal and maybe he thinks a reputation as a ruthless bastard will get him respect. Besides if he ends up rich and powerful, won’t that go a long way towards people doing what he wants them to? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/128 "2013-06-03T16:51:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Who said Gendry is a potential claimant? I don’t think there’s any chance of that. The Red God seems to think there’s kingly power in his blood and the Lanisters seemed to think a true-born son of Robert’s was a threat. (yes it was Joffrey’s plan to kill all the bastards but didn’t Tyrion think it was just bad PR not an unnecessary thing to do) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/129 "2013-06-03T16:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=AClockworkMelon] Rewatching 1.09 the deal was: Walder Frey lets Rob cross and sends with him a few thousand (!) troops, keeping only a few hundred to defend his castle. So he was officially throwing his lot in with Rob and sending a few thousand of his men to fight and die for his war. In exchange he wanted one of his boys to become part of Rob’s entourage and be knighted, he wanted Arya to marry one of his sons, and he wanted Rob to marry one of his daughters. That was the price for his alliance. Frey is an evil cunt but really, Rob paid the price for his breaking of his oath. . [/QUOTE] What’s so pointed about Robb’s betrayal of this particular oath is that it was so unnecessary. In the story do many people are faced with very difficult choices. And when they choose wrong you can still see why they were compelled to make the decisions they did. In Robb’s case there was absolutely no reason for him to get married when he did. It was the one thing Robb did that was completely immature and childish. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/130 "2013-06-03T17:01:46Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > They’re more what you’d call “guidelines” than actual rules. [/barbarossa] This brings to mind a wondeful line in Iain Banks’ book “Surface Detail.” A woman has been legally enslaved because of her father’s debts, becoming the property of a powerful enemy. This is an advanced technological society, they have spaceflight, and there are many legal protections for people sold into debt bondage. But the enemy of course pays no attention to these rules. Which leads to the line: > [@](#): > > She had learned through personal suffering that the strict laws that most people lived under became mere hopeful suggestions as one became rich and powerful.” All to true. I hear that nowadays, if you are a sufficiently rich and powerful banker, you can get away with laundering money for drug cartels and Al Qaeda, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/131 "2013-06-03T17:04:56Z")
I continue to look for the funny in this episode. Bran’s “Hodor, stop hodering!” Also, the rolled back eyes are freaking creepy. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/132 "2013-06-03T17:11:48Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Also, could Snow make a claim to the Stark legacy at this point? To the extent that there’s as theme or point to GoT it’s that laws and claims and legalities are irrelevant if you don’t have the force to back them up. If he ends up with an army of 30,000 hardened troops and rides up to Winterfell and points out that he was Ned’s bastard, well, gosh, I bet lots of people nearby will agree that that’s very important. But aside from that, what does any legality matter? It’s not like there’s a supreme court of Westeros that we’ve ever heard of, and if there was, it would be pretty clearly under the thumb of one Tywin Lannister. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/133 "2013-06-03T17:13:43Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > That was my question too. > So it’s to find the three-eyed crow? That seems… unnecessary. I don’t know about unnecessary, since it’s got a big Important Mystic Quest signpost on it… but it _would_ have been nice of him and Rickon to find a way to let Mummy and Big Brother know they were still alive, at some point. I suppose it don’t matter now, though. > [@](#): > > Also.. now that Bran is basically psychic and has no use of his legs… he’s like the Westeros young version of Professor X. Not to mention, he can control his “wheelchair” with his mind, too 😃 > [@](#): > > I was all WTF-ing Snow’s hasty depature from Ygritte and what he could have assumed was the close proximity of his half-brothers. Wanting to warn Castle Black makes sense, as does him wanting to lead the remaining Wildlings away from that location if Bran and Ricon were there. Yeah, for all the painful heartbreak of Jorah (which was pretty predictable at this point, with his being the ultimate Dogged Nice Guy of the show), I actually feel worse for Ygritte. To the bitter end she was ready to defend her beau, and he shoves her to the ground, leaves her to fend for herself and just legs it ? Not cool, pretty boy. Not cool at all. You _know_ she’s going to spend the rest of her life tracking him down, and then she’ll cut off his bôhne. And by gum, he’ll have deserved it. > [@](#): > > Speaking of which.. how many direwolves are left? Bran and Ricons are near. Snow’s is shadowing Gilly and Sam… Arya’s was sent away in the first season and hasn’t been back right? Yup. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/134 "2013-06-03T17:16:21Z")
Shoving her to the ground was for her sake, Jon had no idea the Direwolves would save his ass and didn’t want to get her killed too. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/135 "2013-06-03T17:27:56Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > The Red God seems to think there’s kingly power in his blood and the Lanisters seemed to think a true-born son of Robert’s was a threat. (yes it was Joffrey’s plan to kill all the bastards but didn’t Tyrion think it was just bad PR not an unnecessary thing to do) I don’t think any of that come anywhere close to implying that Gendry could be a claimant to be the heir to the throne. If you’re saying that some people think that Gendry could have the power to usurp the king that’s different. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/136 "2013-06-03T17:33:59Z")
I have a question for the other non-book-readers like me (book-readers, I assume, got it literally spelled out for them). When Sgt Nutter’s Medieval Hearts Club Band and Archery Society started playing that menacing tune, Cat freaked out and that’s when she realised they were in a trap. It didn’t occur to me till afterwards that the reason the tune made Cat freak out was that it was _the Rains of Castamere_, obviously a poor choice of tune in the circumstances unless it is, duh, a signal that the Starks are about to get massacred. Given that, to me, the only two songs in Westeros are tuneless dirges, did anyone else hear that tune and recognise it? I mean actually recognise the tune itself, not realise (as I did) that it must be _the Rains of Castamere_ from the context? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/137 "2013-06-03T17:37:31Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I have a question for the other non-book-readers like me (book-readers, I assume, got it literally spelled out for them). > > When Sgt Nutter’s Medieval Hearts Club Band and Archery Society started playing that menacing tune, Cat freaked out and that’s when she realised they were in a trap. It didn’t occur to me till afterwards that the reason the tune made Cat freak out was that it was _the Rains of Castamere_, obviously a poor choice of tune in the circumstances unless it is, duh, a signal that the Starks are about to get massacred. > > Given that, to me, the only two songs in Westeros are tuneless dirges, did anyone else hear that tune and recognise it? I mean actually recognise the tune itself, not realise (as I did) that it must be _the Rains of Castamere_ from the context? I did, but only because the title of the episode title kind of led me to it. Otherwise I doubt I would have known. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/138 "2013-06-03T17:38:26Z")
I certainly didn’t recognize it. Had it even been played before? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/139 "2013-06-03T17:39:49Z")
Yeah, constantly this season and last and Cersei explained the meaning behind it last episode. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972/140 "2013-06-03T17:42:03Z")
It also played during the credits at the end of the season 2 episode where Tywin and the Tyrells arrive to save King’s Landing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-3-09-the-rains-of-castamere-6-2-13-no-book-spoilers/659972.md?page=8)