# Game of Thrones 4.01 "Two Swords" 4/6/14 \[NO SPOILERS - See sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480 "2014-04-06T16:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/261 "2014-04-10T14:08:33Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Plus, she’s not mourning, she’s pouting. She was as happy as can be when she was going to marry Loras even though her sister was missing, father was dead, and brother/mother were warring for the other side. Now that she’s stuck with Tyrion, she’s pulling the dead family card. I can’t remember; Did Sansa realize that Loras was gay? Did she care? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/262 "2014-04-10T14:16:39Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I can’t remember; Did Sansa realize that Loras was gay? Did she care? She was the only one who didn’t but to be fair a 14 year old’s gaydar isn’t really finely tuned. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/263 "2014-04-10T14:23:44Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I can’t remember; Did Sansa realize that Loras was gay? Did she care? She did show some bafflement when Loras started going on about wedding details. I don’t know how far that went in her mind. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/264 "2014-04-10T14:25:18Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Just for fun: [Game of Goats](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6tKZ-cg4RI) Heh. Thanks for that. > [@pancakes3](#): > > She was the only one who didn’t but to be fair a 14 year old’s gaydar isn’t really finely tuned. Especially one from a relatively sheltered background, in a quasi-medieval society in which homosexuality is still pretty strongly closeted. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/265 "2014-04-10T14:41:24Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I just realized something last night that was a :smack: . As far as anyone knows, Sansa is now the ruler?Lady?Lord? of Winterfell. Part of the reason I forgot about it was that we all know B&R are still alive but the other reason is that except for some throwaway line by Tywin when he made Tyrion marry Sansa, no one is going around treating her as due her new-found station. Tywin made Bolton the Warden of the North (Ned’s old position) until Tyrion and Sansa’s child comes of age. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/266 "2014-04-10T15:08:19Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Plus, she’s not mourning, she’s pouting. She was as happy as can be when she was going to marry Loras even though her sister was missing, father was dead, and brother/mother were warring for the other side. Now that she’s stuck with Tyrion, she’s pulling the dead family card. Well, a little thing called the Red Wedding happened between then and now, which not only killed her mom and brother but also destroyed the until-then very real hope that her side would win the war. So yes, Sansa is still naive and foolish at times, just like a real person. I just object to the claim that she’s experienced ZERO growth over the course of the show. (I also think she’s doing better at “playing the game” than Theon who has basically turned everything he touched to shit, although I think it’s important to point out that it is NOT in fact the case that everyone is “playing the game of thrones”. The title is in some ways ironic. Littlefinger and the Lannisters and the Tyrells are playing the game, whereas people like Gendry are just trying to survive and live their lives, and whatever Arya is doing it’s certain not intended to end up with her sitting on a throne.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/267 "2014-04-10T15:11:49Z")
Agreed. In fact, of the 29 regular cast members, I’d say a majority aren’t looking for a fancy chair. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/268 "2014-04-10T15:26:14Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Tywin made Bolton the Warden of the North (Ned’s old position) until Tyrion and Sansa’s child comes of age. And if you think \*that \*has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/269 "2014-04-10T15:49:28Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Agreed. In fact, of the 29 regular cast members, I’d say a majority aren’t looking for a fancy chair. In my opinion, the “Game of Thrones” is more than just who gets to sit in the big chair - there are different levels of success all along the way (which lands you get, who you get to marry, who you manage to get your children to marry, etc.) that are all included in the Game. The higher up you get and the more successful you are, the more stuff you have (money, lands, power). Some of the nobility like Ned Stark are happy with what they have and try to opt out of the game, but as we’ve seen, opting not to play (or playing badly) ends in you losing everything because a better player will just take it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/270 "2014-04-10T16:47:03Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I don’t have a problem with people failing at the game. Theon is failing miserably. Miserably is an understatement. “My name is Reek!” although the bit with the sausage and “I’m not a savage.” was an lol moment. > [@puddleglum](#): > > I think the reason character of Sansa is so compelling is that she is so passive and so naive. I don’t agree about being passive. Remember when she threw Anya and the butcher’s boy under the bus (or horse at it turned out) because she wanted to marry Joffrey and be Queen? And how it turned into a “Ummm . . . wait a minute.” naivity moment when she found out that her lie would get Lady killed. I think Anya is the only Stark that I really like and has half a brain. She must get that from the Tully side. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/271 "2014-04-10T17:22:22Z")
Not that trashing a 14 year old girl for not being a shrewd and perfect character and arguing about dragon biology isn’t FASCINATING. :)… …Hey… anyone remember that the ending of Season 2 was the army of the dead marching on the wall? When are we going to get back to that? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/272 "2014-04-10T17:29:59Z")
[Awesome parody/crossover with Nightmare Before Christmas song](http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/04/nightmare-before-christmas-game-of-thrones?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_term=tordotcom&utm_content=-na_readblog_blogpost&utm_campaign=tor.commediacoverage) And click through to the KFC/Hound commercial from Jimmy Fallon’s show. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/273 "2014-04-10T17:31:20Z")
Keep in mind that Sansa, amongst all the characters has gotten to go nowhere physically. She lived in Winterfell, which was kind of miserable and then she went to King’s Landing which is kind of miserable for her and nowhere else. It never seemed she had much fight in her, but she hasn’t really had a chance, either. She has basically been confined her whole life, unable to escape. And every chance or thought she has ever had about a different life has been crushed, one after another. She was naive, now she is just beaten. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/274 "2014-04-10T17:32:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think Anya is the only Stark that I really like and has half a brain. She must get that from the Tully side. Actually, Arya ain’t all that smart either - she’s just more smarter than the Stark baseline, which… yes. But she also started off very naive (“I’m going to save the butcher’s boy by telling the truth and nothing but the truth ! Like my father ! Who’s VERY smart !”) and after that, I mean, she had access to the most bestest murderer there was who’d granted her 3 ultimate death wishes. She could have ended the war then and there by saying, e.g. “Tywin, Jaime, the Mountain”. Or “Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey”. But instead she went with underlings and mooks exclusively. Which is all to her credit of course - “she” killed the most cruel people in her immediate vicinity. But that was also burning the trees for the forest, or something very torturedly metaphorical like that. Her immaturity also shined through during the Brotherhood Without Banners episode when she was all indignant that a parcel of starving, unaligned rogues would sell out her friend Gendry when given good reason to. Well, _duh_, love. Don’t get me wrong, I like her character, I like her arc, and I love that she’s turning into the most adorable soulbroken psychopath. But she ain’t smarter than Sansa, not really. Certainly she isn’t any less blindly idealistic. She just dumbs out in different and more manslaughtery ways. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/275 "2014-04-10T18:07:09Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Remember when Poggle’s cocksmanship was so impressive that the whores wouldn’t take his money? The SDMB spent pages debating what that scene meant and how it would come back at some point–when ultimately it looks like it was just meant to be a funny bit. . . I thought that was Tyrion’s thank-you gift to Podrick - a reputation for excellent “cocksmanship.” i.e. I assumed he had paid the ladies in advance to do this for Pod. > [@tim314](#): > > Surely it would have to be a daddy human and a mommy dragon, given the relative sizes. I think it’s more that dragons are born of Targaryen blood (or heart’s blood) than otherwise. Remember Melisandre’s story about Azor Ahai and the ultimate weapon? He eventually had to sacrifice his beloved wife to make it come out right. Isn’t that what Dany did, to make the dragon’s hatch? She sacrificed her child (Targaryen blood) and her beloved husband. Thus the dragons are responsive to Targaryen blood, rather than Targaryens receiving their magic from dragons. Also, having been raised by two dog-breeding parents, I can attest that in-breeding concentrates both positive and negative traits. Not every blood hound will get the ultra-smell gene, and some might just get a double-dose of the hip-displaysia or patellar luxation genes. Some Targaryens will get a stronger dose of the specific Targaryen magic/talent and some will get their weakness (narcissistic disorder/sociopathy). Each of the houses seems to have its own sort of magic/talent and weakness which has shaped the house and its association over the centuries. (Ned’s brother and sister had “The wolf’s blood” which made them “. . .wild, beautiful, and dead before their time.”) There’s a lot of reference to ancient knowledge slipping into myth, legend or even being lost entirely. But shadows of the pattern show up in the sigils and myths. Re: Arya, saying that she is “Just a little girl” at this point is ludicrous. She has been forced to watch people tortured to death, been present at the beheading of her father, chased away her beloved pet to save it from murder, only to see the death fall upon her sister’s wolf instead, and her sister accordingly hate her guts. She’s seen her brother dead with his wolf’s head sewn to his body. . . and knows her Mother was killed by the same gang. That’s no little girl at this point, and expecting anything but cold revenge from her is just silly. That she even relates to friendship and loyalty enough to avenge a friend seems pretty amazing to me. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/276 "2014-04-10T18:46:25Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Remember Melisandre’s story about Azor Ahai and the ultimate weapon? I think you are breaking the spoiler rule here by including background information from the books. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/277 "2014-04-10T18:51:04Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I thought that was Tyrion’s thank-you gift to Podrick - a reputation for excellent “cocksmanship.” i.e. I assumed he had paid the ladies in advance to do this for Pod. I don’t believe so. Both Bronn and Tyrion seemed genuinely flabbergasted that the whores had given Pod a ride “on the house”. It could have been an act, I suppose, but Bronn doesn’t seem to be the type. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/278 "2014-04-10T19:10:00Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > …She’s seen her brother dead with his wolf’s head sewn to his body… Did she? I thought the Hound conked her out before she saw that. She’s probably heard of it since, though. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/279 "2014-04-10T19:20:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Did she? I thought the Hound conked her out before she saw that. She’s probably heard of it since, though. I am sure she saw it–if she didn’t she then heard the Frey men talking about it at the campfire…and she killed the guy telling the story. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/280 "2014-04-10T19:21:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Did she? I thought the Hound conked her out before she saw that. She’s probably heard of it since, though. She saw it at the beginning of the next episode, as the Hound was riding the hell out of there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=15)