# Game of Thrones 4.01 "Two Swords" 4/6/14 \[NO SPOILERS - See sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480 "2014-04-06T16:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/281 "2014-04-10T19:48:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t believe so. Both Bronn and Tyrion seemed genuinely flabbergasted that the whores had given Pod a ride “on the house”. It could have been an act, I suppose, but Bronn doesn’t seem to be the type. My pet theory is that Podrick is the one who is going to impregnate Sansa with Tyrion’s blessing as a subtle way of getting back at Tywin. Thus the only official Lannister children will not actually be Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/282 "2014-04-10T19:51:32Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Sansa isn’t just passive, she’s passive aggressive and that is frustrating to watch. She knows better than to behave the way she did to Tyrion and if she was married to anyone else she would be smacked in the mouth if not worse. Yeah! How dare she not let the man who she’s been forced to marry and whose family has had hers murdered fuck her! He was nice to her so really she owes it to him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/283 "2014-04-10T19:53:35Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Not that trashing a 14 year old girl for not being a shrewd and perfect character and arguing about dragon biology isn’t FASCINATING. :)… > …Hey… anyone remember that the ending of Season 2 was the army of the dead marching on the wall? > > When are we going to get back to that? The end of season 2 was an army of undead marching on the place were the nightswatch was camped very very far from the wall. And we did see the results of that. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/284 "2014-04-10T20:15:46Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Yeah! How dare she not let the man who she’s been forced to marry and whose family has had hers murdered fuck her! He was nice to her so really she owes it to him. I’m pretty sure all Tyrion wanted was for her to eat a lemon cake. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/285 "2014-04-10T20:28:45Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m pretty sure all Tyrion wanted was for her to eat a lemon cake. Whatever the kids are calling it these days. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/286 "2014-04-10T21:01:42Z")
Is that like a “lemon party?” ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/287 "2014-04-10T23:03:59Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m watching a show. The character doesn’t look 14 at all. How could I possibly perceive her as being 14? I know this a common flaw in American TV, but personnally, I’m utterly unable to watch a 25 yo on screen and that he’s in fact a 15 yo high schooler, for instance. > > I know that Sansa is supposed to be a young teen in the books, but if it weren’t for the fact that she menstruated recently for the first time, I would have assumed that the show had made the choice of making her a significantly older girl. I know that the actress wasn’t much older either, but she _looked_ older. Similarly, for me, Jon Snow or Robb Stark are in their mid/late 20, definitely not teenagers. Discussing them as if they really were 15 just seems silly to me since they obviously aren’t in the show. I’m just unable to perceive them any other way and again with the exception of Sansa, nowhere it is mentioned that they’re as young in the show as they are in the books. So, yes I make the assumption that characters in the show are the age they look like they are. > Maybe I’m supposed to ignore what I see in the same way that in some theatrical traditions I’m supposed to pretend that the male actor is in fact a female, but if so, it absolutely doesn’t work for me. > > Finally, a 18 yo girl isn’t massively more mature than a 15 yo, nor expected to be able to handle what Sansa has to face in the show. So age-related arguments ( “she’s only a terrified teen”) are pretty much as valid either way. Again, I’m ready to accept she has excuses for being what she is, but I’m still totally unimpressed by the evolution some viewers seem to perceive in her character. The character is explicitly stated to be 14 years old after her wedding to Tyrion. Meanwhile, my daughter’s best friend is well over 5 feet tall; her (over 6 foot) father told me the other day that he wears her Crocs if he needs to run outside quickly. She has breasts and hips and is starting to look like a woman in shape and size. **She’s ten years old**. She is certainly on the higher end for development for her age group, but she’s also four years younger than Sansa. I think \*your \*perception of reality is skewed, rather than the presentation of Sansa in the show. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/288 "2014-04-10T23:34:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I just realized something last night that was a :smack: . As far as anyone knows, Sansa is now the ruler?Lady?Lord? of Winterfell. Part of the reason I forgot about it was that we all know B&R are still alive but the other reason is that except for some throwaway line by Tywin when he made Tyrion marry Sansa, no one is going around treating her as due her new-found station. It appears that Westeros follows [jure uxoris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jure_uxoris); which is why Tywin was so keen marrying her off to a Lannister. Of course she’s also not willing to let Tyrion go rule Winterfell in her name; which would normally be the case for her husband. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/289 "2014-04-10T23:50:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Duke of Wellington considered himself an Englishman to the core but was actually born in Ireland. He once said, “Just because one is born in a stable does not make one a horse.” Great quote but nobody has ever been able to show he actually said it. Daniel O’Connell said it of him but it was in O’Connell’s interests to make Wellesley look bad to an Irish audience. > [@](#): > > “The poor old Duke! what shall I say of him? To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse.” > Daniel O’Connell, in a speech (16 October 1843), as quoted in\* Shaw’s Authenticated Report of the Irish State Trials\* (1844), p. 93 ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/290 "2014-04-11T02:10:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think you are breaking the spoiler rule here by including background information from the books. No, she talked about it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/291 "2014-04-11T07:57:33Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > The character is explicitly stated to be 14 years old after her wedding to Tyrion. > > […]. I think \*your \*perception of reality is skewed, rather than the presentation of Sansa in the show. Ok. I admit I was wrong and that show Sansa is indeed 14. And that it makes her attitude more understandable (although again, I don’t think it would not be understandable coming from a 18 yo or anybody for that matter). I still stand by my statement that she didn’t demonstrate any significant improvement in her grasp of reality. If it has been stated too in the show that Jon/Robb/Danaerys were 17 or so as someone said, then fine but they neither look like teens nor behave like teens, so it’s quite a bit ludicrous to pretend they are. The characters and events would appear vastly different if at first glance you were thinking “wow! this “king/army leader” is just a kid!” . Look for instance at scenes when Robb chastizes his uncle, refuses to follow the advice of his followers, sentences lord Karstark, confronts Jaime or lord Frey, or even falls in love with Chaplin (sorry, can’t remember her name in the show). It would have a completely different impact if the actor looked 17. You can’t have your cake and eat it, and the producers should either have cast young looking actors (for instance I believe that the actor playing Jojan Reed is much older than he looks, so that should be possible) or just decide that the characters were older. Someone said that I should accept the premise, but I just can’t look at a mid 20s actor and react as if he were 16, and I doubt many viewers are able to do that. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/292 "2014-04-11T08:29:34Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Ok. I admit I was wrong and that show Sansa is indeed 14. And that it makes her attitude more understandable (although again, I don’t think it would not be understandable coming from a 18 yo or anybody for that matter). > > I still stand by my statement that she didn’t demonstrate any significant improvement in her grasp of reality. > If it has been stated too in the show that Jon/Robb/Danaerys were 17 or so as someone said, then fine but they neither look like teens nor behave like teens, so it’s quite a bit ludicrous to pretend they are. The characters and events would appear vastly different if at first glance you were thinking “wow! this “king/army leader” is just a kid!” . Look for instance at scenes when Robb chastizes his uncle, refuses to follow the advice of his followers, sentences lord Karstark, confronts Jaime or lord Frey, or even falls in love with Chaplin (sorry, can’t remember her name in the show). It would have a completely different impact if the actor looked 17. You can’t have your cake and eat it, and the producers should either have cast young looking actors (for instance I believe that the actor playing Jojan Reed is much older than he looks, so that should be possible) or just decide that the characters were older. > > Someone said that I should accept the premise, but I just can’t look at a mid 20s actor and react as if he were 16, and I doubt many viewers are able to do that. I have to agree about Jon Snow and Robb (and also Theon, but not Sansa; I know 14-year-olds who look as old as her and more). Daenarys could be an older teenager maybe. Robb was referred to as a boy several times, but he and the others do look and act much too old to be teenagers, even in the world they live in. Too much suspension of disbelief is required to accept them as teenagers. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/293 "2014-04-11T09:10:15Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Ok. I admit I was wrong and that show Sansa is indeed 14. […] If it has been stated too in the show that Jon/Robb/Danaerys were 17 or so as someone said, then fine but they neither look like teens nor behave like teens, so it’s quite a bit ludicrous to pretend they are. Totally with you on Robb and Jon being clearly mid-20s characters, and if they were stated to be teenagers in-show then I join you in calling shenanigans. I think you’re way off base on Sophie Turner, though. The actress was the character’s same age when the show began. Unless you want them to replace the actress every season with a “new” 14-year-old, your expectation that the actress continues to look the same age from 14 to 18 is unrealistic. Dany could easily be in the 18-21 range based on how her character has behaved throughout the series. The actress looks a bit older than that, but not enough to be an issue. At least she didn’t grow a foot like Sophie Turner did. heh. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/294 "2014-04-11T12:54:02Z")
They are medieval teenagers not modern teenagers. A girl was ready to be “wedded and bedded” on the day of her first period, an 8 or 9 year old was supposed to witness a beheading so he would be ready when it was his turn to do it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/295 "2014-04-11T13:17:10Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > They are medieval teenagers not modern teenagers. A girl was ready to be “wedded and bedded” on the day of her first period, an 8 or 9 year old was supposed to witness a beheading so he would be ready when it was his turn to do it. Medieval boys would also mature later than modern boys do, getting beards and deep voices later. Same as girls got their first period later than now. Jon and Robb just don’t look remotely teenaged. I know some teenage boys who look far older than their years, and Jon and Robb still look older. They also act far older. And Bran was ten. Not that it matters much, but since we’re arguing over ages it would be good to get them right. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/296 "2014-04-11T13:19:12Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Medieval boys would also mature later than modern boys do, getting beards and deep voices later. Same as girls got their first period later than now. > > Jon and Robb just don’t look remotely teenaged. I know some teenage boys who look far older than their years, and Jon and Robb still look older. They also act far older. > > And Bran was ten. Not that it matters much, but since we’re arguing over ages it would be good to get them right. Fwiw, they didn’t get sansa wedded and bedded on the first day of her first period either. It showed them she was capable of bearing children, but they didn’t rush her straight into a wedding dress. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/297 "2014-04-11T13:31:35Z")
Well it was the middle of a battle, it certainly happened as soon as things were settled. And Tyrion was expected to bed her. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/298 "2014-04-11T13:37:05Z")
Oh yeah, I agree that Robb, Jon, Theon, Dany, and others must be early 20s or something. I don’t think the show has explicitly given their ages (and any other sources are irrelevant for this discussion), the actors are all in their 20s, and perhaps most importantly, they are depicted doing things that not even HBO would dare to present as a 14-17 year old doing! The worst suspension of disbelief issue is Bran - he was supposed to be 10 in season 1, and what, 2 years or so have gone by, max? Yet he’s very obviously 15 or so. Unlike girls, boys don’t tend to get sex characteristics (deep voices and broad shoulders, here) around 12. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/299 "2014-04-11T14:38:23Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > The worst suspension of disbelief issue is Bran - he was supposed to be 10 in season 1, and what, 2 years or so have gone by, max? Yet he’s very obviously 15 or so. Unlike girls, boys don’t tend to get sex characteristics (deep voices and broad shoulders, here) around 12. It’s okay, they’ll just have the Others take him and we’ll see him again a few years later. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/300 "2014-04-11T14:55:41Z")
You folks who are arguing about what a teenager could or couldn’t do in medieval society should read up about [Margaret of Anjou](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Anjou), who was literally **in charge of England** at the age of 18 (in place of her husband, the fairly useless [Henry VI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI_of_England)). GRR Martin was heavily influenced by the Wars of the Roses, and it shows. I’m sure Margaret of Anjou’s interesting career helped inspire several of the female characters in Game of Thrones. Leaving aside the dragons and the magic stuff, there isn’t much in Game of Thrones that doesn’t have a real-life precedent. Teenaged girls leading armies? [It really happened](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=16)