# Game of Thrones 4.01 "Two Swords" 4/6/14 \[NO SPOILERS - See sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480 "2014-04-06T16:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/121 "2014-04-08T15:38:12Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Bargaining chip? Bargaining with whom? Karstark openly, brazenly defied him and murdered prisoners. Failing to punish him shows that he is weak. No matter what he did in response, the Karstarks were already lost. By following the law and executing him, he cemented the loyalty of the other non-Karstark northmen. It was a difficult situation, but it was the smartest decision. The smartest decision? Losing the Karstarks was what forced him to try and form an alliance with the Freys and we know how that worked out. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/122 "2014-04-08T15:42:15Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > How does that even work? When a daddy dragon and a mommy human love each other very much, they have a special hug … ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/123 "2014-04-08T15:52:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > His reasoning is not entirely false. He rightly believes that an effective King must set a good example. And there is plenty of evidence that he is popular and effective. In the end his choices turn out to be wrong in some cases but not necessarily because they were stupid. The only thing Robb did that was halfway dumb was to marry Talisa/Jeyne and thereby offend Walder Frey. Even at that, under normal circumstances, that would have just got him no cooperation from Frey, but he, Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister conspired to do something so far out of the ordinary that nobody else would have comprehended that it was even possible, and perpetrated the Red Wedding. Basically the custom of protecting visitors who you share meat and mead with was SO ingrained, that in many ways, Walder Frey and House Frey are somewhat outcast afterward. I think criticizing Robb for not expecting the Red Wedding is a bit simplistic- the Red Wedding broke one of the most, if not the most sacred customs that the Westerosi hold. Otherwise, Robb didn’t necessarily do anything too crazy- he was wildly successful in the field, and just got beaten by what amounted to a somewhat desperate hail-mary, even if it looks cold and calculating. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/124 "2014-04-08T15:57:24Z")
The Starks were for the most part not stupid, they were simply out of their element. You wouldn’t call a carpenter stupid if he was forced to do pottery and sucked at it. Sansa was a sheltered teenage girl, yeah that probably made her stupid, but she shouldn’t have been expected to not be. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/125 "2014-04-08T16:03:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > … Walder Frey and House Frey are somewhat outcast afterward. I don’t recall seeing anything in the show suggesting this. I mean, it stands to reason that it _might_ be true, but I’m curious what you’re basing this on. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/126 "2014-04-08T16:04:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > He was also a teenager who’s father had been killed. I’d say his actions were characteristic of such. He made some mistakes, but I wouldn’t call him stupid. Mrs Cad claims that I knew about the Red Wedding before the episode because when Robb decides to go to Frey after cancelling the betrothal, even I (didn’t read the books) said something really bad is going to happen - like really REALLY bad. I’m not saying anyone predicted TRW but honestly, did anyone watching hear Robb’s plan and wasn’t saying, “Oooooh. Bad idea.” Can most of Robb’s “stupidity” be written off and completely undiplomatic like his dad? Sure but his last major decision was moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/127 "2014-04-08T16:14:41Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > She is part dragon. The Targaryens aren’t literally descended from dragons any more than Lannisters are from lions or Starks are from wolves. Their bloodline dates back to Old Valyria where they were accomplished dragon lords (snake charmers, horse whisperers), but they never sexed up giant lizards. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/128 "2014-04-08T16:17:21Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I don’t recall seeing anything in the show suggesting this. I mean, it stands to reason that it _might_ be true, but I’m curious what you’re basing this on. In the season three finale, [Bran tells the story of the Ratcook](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWFeamtjHJE), whom the gods cursed for killing a guest in his master’s house, followed by an immediate cut to Walder Frey. The implication is clear. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/129 "2014-04-08T16:18:20Z")
It’s more than that. Dany is fireproof. That’s clearly beyond any sort of snake charmer sort of relationship. It’s possible that her birthing the dragons was a result of some sort of knowledge (knowing the pyre would work), but the fireproof thing is definitely magic. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/130 "2014-04-08T16:18:40Z")
> [@Reverse](#): > > The Targaryens aren’t literally descended from dragons any more than Lannisters are from lions or Starks are from wolves. Their bloodline dates back to Old Valyria where they were accomplished dragon lords (snake charmers, horse whisperers), but they never sexed up giant lizards. Then what is the source of Dany’s magic? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/131 "2014-04-08T16:20:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then what is the source of Dany’s magic? We don’t really know. We don’t really know what the actual source is of any of the magic in the series. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/132 "2014-04-08T16:21:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then what is the source of Dany’s magic? What is the source of Bran’s magic? Melisandre’s? The warlocks of Qarth’s? Viserys wasn’t magical. Neither Rhaegar or the Mad King were. Maester Aemon doesn’t have magic powers. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/133 "2014-04-08T16:28:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then what is the source of Dany’s magic? She is part dragon. > [@Acsenray](#): > > “There’s magic involved” seems a much more logical explanation than that she is literally descended from a dragon. She is literally descended from dragons. How? “There’s magic involved.” ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/134 "2014-04-08T16:31:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then what is the source of Dany’s magic? As far as the dragon birth go it was probably blood magic like the witch woman did, her fire inmunity is not explained. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/135 "2014-04-08T16:32:09Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > She is part dragon. > > She is literally descended from dragons. How? “There’s magic involved.” Then why aren’t the other Targaryens we know of magical if it’s hereditary. You’ve misunderstood her house’s blustering as a literal truth. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/136 "2014-04-08T16:34:20Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > She is part dragon. > > She is literally descended from dragons. How? “There’s magic involved.” Says who? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/137 "2014-04-08T16:36:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > When a daddy dragon and a mommy human love each other very much, they have a special hug … Surely it would have to be a daddy human and a mommy dragon, given the relative sizes. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/138 "2014-04-08T16:41:32Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > In the season three finale, Bran tells the story of the Ratcook, whom the gods cursed for killing a guest in his master’s house, followed by an immediate cut to Walder Frey. The implication is clear. I don’t see how that implies that Frey is actually an outcast. The fact that the remaining Starks don’t like him and wish him ill doesn’t really tell us anything. To the best of my recollection, we’ve not yet seen any negative repercussions for Frey after his colorful wedding planning. Heck, maybe the other Houses are impressed with the strength and cunning of House Frey. Or perhaps they are fearful and therefore more willing to work with him. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/139 "2014-04-08T16:41:35Z")
> [@Reverse](#): > > Then why aren’t the other Targaryens we know of magical if it’s hereditary. Some of them are. It’s a reasonable assumption that the original conqueror 300 years ago who flew in on dragons was also part dragon. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Says who? The characters in the show. > [@tim314](#): > > Surely it would have to be a daddy human and a mommy dragon, given the relative sizes. We’ve already seen shapeshifters in the show; it’s not too much of a leap to imagine a shapeshifting human turning into a dragon, or vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/140 "2014-04-08T16:41:43Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Surely it would have to be a daddy human and a mommy dragon, given the relative sizes. From what I’ve heard from friends on the Internets, human female anatomy is quite accommodating to all manner of monstrous phalluses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=8)