# Game of Thrones 4.01 "Two Swords" 4/6/14 \[NO SPOILERS - See sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 6, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480 "2014-04-06T16:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/141 "2014-04-08T16:45:36Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Some of them are. It’s a reasonable assumption that the original conqueror 300 years ago who flew in on dragons was also part dragon. Flew on dragons, wasn’t a dragon. Is everyone who can ride on a horse descended from horses? > [@](#): > > The characters in the show. They say Robb Stark turns into a wolf, eats children and cannot be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/142 "2014-04-08T16:51:50Z")
Robb knew how to win battles, but had no idea how to win the war. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/143 "2014-04-08T17:07:18Z")
> [@Reverse](#): > > Then why aren’t the other Targaryens we know of magical if it’s hereditary. > > You’ve misunderstood her house’s blustering as a literal truth. There was the incident when her brother was killed, she said something like, “he can’t have been a dragon, because fire hurt him.” She also wasn’t bothered by the fire when the eggs hatched. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/144 "2014-04-08T17:13:30Z")
For those arguing that Dany isn’t part dragon, how is she immune to fire? Careful with “it’s magic” as an answer, as that answer equally supports Dany being part dragon. > [@Reverse](#): > > Flew on dragons, wasn’t a dragon. Is everyone who can ride on a horse descended from horses? Horses aren’t magical beings. It’s not unreasonable to imagine that dragons wouldn’t let a regular human ride them; only those with dragon blood. Or even that riding on the shoulders of a fire-breathing dragon would barbecue you into a charcoal briquette when it used its breath attack, not from open flame but just the heat. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/145 "2014-04-08T17:19:55Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > For those arguing that Dany isn’t part dragon, how is she immune to fire? If Daenerys is descended from dragons and that’s why she’s immune to fire, why isn’t her brother, Viserys, born from the same set of parents, immune to fire? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/146 "2014-04-08T17:23:19Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > For those arguing that Dany isn’t part dragon, how is she immune to fire? Careful with “it’s magic” as an answer, as that answer equally supports Dany being part dragon. The answer supports Dany being part dragon as much as it supports her being part unicorn. She isn’t part dragon because nobody in her family ever fucked a dragon as far as anyone knows, while there are plenty of examples of other characters who are simply “magical”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/147 "2014-04-08T17:24:30Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Careful with “it’s magic” as an answer, as that answer equally supports Dany being part dragon. No, it doesn’t. Even in a world in which magic exists, there are kinds of magic that are more or less likely, a human successfully copulating with a dragon being one of the less likely. The very fact that no credible source of information, not even Danaerys herself, has ever explicitly claimed that “my ancestor literally fucked a dragon,” is enough to make it a highly suspect conclusion. > [@](#): > > Horses aren’t magical beings. It’s not unreasonable to imagine that dragons wouldn’t let a regular human ride them; only those with dragon blood. How do you know what the relative magicalness of horses and dragons are? Humans aren’t normally magical beings either. And just being “magical” in one way or another is not by itself a reason to believe there was an actual dragon-human mating scenario. It’s not impossible that Danaerys turns out to be a literal dragon, but the show offers no reason to believe this is literally true. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/148 "2014-04-08T17:24:44Z")
Pretty good episode, and a good start to the new season, I’d say. I know it would make for boring TV, but I wonder about the logistics of Danys’ army. We never see the cooks, armorers, supply wagons etc. it would require. I completely understand why Sansa is as she is, given the many problems she’s had, but she’s neither a beauty nor a very good actress IMHO. Loved the dragons. Dany is not _completely_ in charge. Loved the scene with Jaime, Joffrey and the book of past Kingsguard knights. You can just see Jaime coming to understand what a monstrous, petulant douchebag his son the King is. Yes, Kingsguard service is supposed to be for life, but I’m sure Tywin could prevail upon the King to discharge Jaime from his duty (as he did that older knight who ended up with Dany), pardon him (again) for the breach of his oath, and let him go back to Casterly Rock. [quote=“Snarky\_Kong, post:92, topic:685480”] The Hound was pretty amazing this episode: [ul] [li]Lots of people name their swords. Lots of cunts.[/li][li]You’re going to die over a chicken? Someone is. [/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Loved those lines. The Hound is a freakin’ _badass_. My other favorite line this week: Snooty Dornishman: “You’re a lord? How did _you_ become a lord?” Bronn (shrugs): “Killed the right people, I guess.” > [@marshmallow](#): > > …I’d watch a spin off show of the Hound and Arya wandering around the country side righting wrongs. Brienne can come too… Sign me up! I’d watch that, too. I’m always glad to see more of Brienne. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > More than that, it sort of makes sense that the northerners, those who have the hardest existance, turn to leadership who are basically good guys, who live by a code, who try to do right by those they rule. Living in the North is a struggle just to survive, and all of the backstabbing and civil wars and infighting would sidetrack preparation for the harshness of winter to a greater degree than it did elsewhere. They needed fair leadership and cooperation, because they had the strongest motivaton to unite to ensure their very survival. Not a bad theory. > [@Reverse](#): > > Flew on dragons, wasn’t a dragon. Is everyone who can ride on a horse descended from horses?.. The Duke of Wellington considered himself an Englishman to the core but was actually born in Ireland. He once said, “Just because one is born in a stable does not make one a horse.” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/149 "2014-04-08T17:25:04Z")
I’d like to point out that it feels like I’m arguing with people who have outside knowledge. Based on nothing but the show, right now in the story it is clear and undeniable that Dany is part dragon: [ul][li]She’s immune to heat and fire[/li][li]She gave birth to a (stillborn) scaly half-dragon baby[/li][li]She communes with dragons[/li][li]She intuitively knew how to hatch the ancient dragon eggs[/li][li]Her family history is closely tied to dragons[/ul][/li] If she’s _not_ part dragon, but instead just randomly happens to be immune to fire in a ridiculously happy coincidence for someone who spends a lot of time around fire-breathing dragons, that strains suspension of disbelief to the breaking point lacking additional information not yet presented in the story. Also, it’s not required for an ancestor to literally fuck a dragon to be descended from dragons. Again: It’s magic. > [@Reverse](#): > > If Daenerys is descended from dragons and that’s why she’s immune to fire, why isn’t her brother, Viserys, born from the same set of parents, immune to fire? Recessive gene? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/150 "2014-04-08T17:38:06Z")
After a smoke, I could see maybe an ancestor fought a dragon, got bit by one and somehow survived (or maybe brought back from the dead by the Red God) and as a result was imbued with the traits of a dragon sort of like a werewolf bite. This dragon essence being passed to some children and not others is the least unbelievable aspect of such a story device. In any case, we don’t know for sure, but nothing presented in the show to date points to anything other than Dany is indeed part dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/151 "2014-04-08T17:38:32Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’d like to point out that it feels like I’m arguing with people who have outside knowledge. It’s not outside knowledge, it’s simple logic. Lannisters aren’t lions, Starks aren’t wolves, Targaryens aren’t dragons. Daenerys has magical powers. Viserys didn’t, the Mad King didn’t, Rhaegar didn’t. Melisandre has magical powers. Thoros of Myr has magical powers. Bran has magical powers. Jojen has magical powers. Orell had magical powers. The warlocks of Qarth have/had magical powers. Jaqen H’ghar has magical powers. Daenerys is magical, but not a dragon. If Daenerys is magical because she’s a dragon, then her brothers and father and mother would’ve also been. If Daenerys is magical because she’s a dragon, does that mean that the other people who are magical are also dragons? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/152 "2014-04-08T17:41:23Z")
Well, the family mythology is that they are in fact part dragon. Whether that is true is unknown, but the Taegaryans certainly believe it is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/153 "2014-04-08T17:45:34Z")
> [@Reverse](#): > > If Daenerys is magical because she’s a dragon, then her brothers and father and mother would’ve also been. I don’t see why it couldn’t be a recessive trait. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/154 "2014-04-08T17:47:41Z")
I’ve not read a single word of the books and have avoided all book spoilers. From the facts given I can’t see her literally being part dragon. Dragon-inspired magic could be passed on in many different ways. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/155 "2014-04-08T17:49:29Z")
> [@Reverse](#): > > It’s not outside knowledge, it’s simple logic. > > Lannisters aren’t lions, Starks aren’t wolves, Targaryens aren’t dragons. Starks and Lannisters didn’t get their sigil because they thought their ancestors were wolves or lions. Nor did their ancestors ride upon magical lions or wolves. Nor do they have magical powers intimately related to their sigils. It’s a silly comparison. It’s possible that Dany’s magic came just completely at random, and just happens to intimately coincide with her family’s historical abilities and mythology, but that’d be a pretty huge coincidence and bad storytelling, so at this junction it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that dragon magic and the targaryens are related. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/156 "2014-04-08T17:49:43Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > After a smoke, I could see maybe an ancestor fought a dragon, got bit by one and somehow survived (or maybe brought back from the dead by the Red God) and as a result was imbued with the traits of a dragon sort of like a werewolf bite. This dragon essence being passed to some children and not others is the least unbelievable aspect of such a story device. > > In any case, we don’t know for sure, but nothing presented in the show to date points to anything other than Dany is indeed part dragon. The show strongly points to there being a magical link between Targaryen blood and dragons, a link manifested strongly in Dany and presumably much less strongly in Viserys. How you get from that to her being “part dragon” is unclear to me. ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/157 "2014-04-08T17:55:41Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The Hound was pretty amazing this episode: > > [ul] > [li]What the fuck’s a Lommy?[/li][li]Lots of people name their swords. Lots of cunts.[/li][li]You’re going to die over a chicken? Someone is. [/li][/ul] > > Pretty damn fun introduction to Oberyn Martell. Pretty fucking baller to roll into the capital and basically say “yo Tyrion, I’m going to kill your dad.” Isn’t that the most dialog we’ve had from The Hound to date? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/158 "2014-04-08T17:58:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In the season three finale, [Bran tells the story of the Ratcook](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWFeamtjHJE), whom the gods cursed for killing a guest in his master’s house, followed by an immediate cut to Walder Frey. The implication is clear. Not to mention the conversation between Tywin and Tyrion where Tywin makes it clear he needs plausible deniability. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/159 "2014-04-08T17:58:44Z")
Well, I’m guessing the fool’s necklace will become the wedge between Sansa and house Tyrell when Margaery wantsit wantsit wantsitNOW ? That, or Shae will believe it’s a gift from Tyrion and blow another gasket. Agreed with \*\*clairobscur \*\*on the new Daario - he looks sort of generic for a man who killed two old friends “for beauty”. I know they couldn’t keep Ed Skein who had other commitments, but… I dunno, wasn’t Fabio available ? 🙂 I’m a bit puzzled by Jorah’s line : “Dragons cannot be tamed, even by their mother”. Didn’t the Targaryens use to ride them bitches into battle ? Did they just hold on for dear life while the dragons did what they felt like roasting, then did that cat thing where you look at people like the dumb thing that just happened was _exactly_ what you were going for ? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480/160 "2014-04-08T18:02:39Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The smartest decision? Losing the Karstarks was what forced him to try and form an alliance with the Freys and we know how that worked out. He had to ally with the Frey’s regardless, because he had to cross the Twins to get where he needed to be. And he was going to need the Frey army regardless. Breaking the alliance with Walder Frey was obviously a terrible move, certainly, but it’s likely that the red wedding would have happened either way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-01-two-swords-4-6-14-no-spoilers-see-sticky/685480.md?page=9)