# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/181 "2014-04-15T00:51:29Z")
They weren’t the same goblet - the one that was given to him by his father in law was huge, like a trophy. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/182 "2014-04-15T01:13:21Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Seriously, that little “look at me with my bad ass sword” prance he did every time he unsheated his sword was so freaking perfect. He really knocked that character out of the park, and this last episode was his best. He swears that he is leaving acting now because he doesn’t like being a celebrity. I don’t think he’ll be allowed to; there will be too many offers he can’t refuse. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/183 "2014-04-15T01:28:32Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > He swears that he is leaving acting now because he doesn’t like being a celebrity. I don’t think he’ll be allowed to; there will be too many offers he can’t refuse. I’ve heard that he gets a fair amount of hate from people who can’t separate their feelings for Joffrey from their feelings for the actor. If he takes some roles where he’s not playing an arrogant little shit he may find that he can enjoy being a celebrity a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/184 "2014-04-15T01:29:32Z")
He was very, very good indeed. The _Entertainment Weekly_ article I mentioned earlier made it clear that he’s actually a mellow young guy - who can _act_. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/185 "2014-04-15T01:30:54Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I have to admit though, I never NEVER saw Joffery’s death coming. I figured he was so hated that his death would be the show’s finale. That is GRR Martin. Ned Stark, his son, his wife, Joffrey: he’ll kill a major character as quick as if they were a spear carrier. It makes GoT interesting because unlike most shows, where you know that the actors in the opening credits are safe, or even like Harry Potter where there are a couple of big deaths but they’re in the final act and even then you know that Harry and Ron and Hermione are going to be safe, anybody can die (or lose a hand, or be disfigured, or be made a cowed eunuch slave) at any time in Westeros. To me, it keeps it really interesting\*. My favorite thing about Joffrey’s death is that most of the characters are multidimensional and have at least _some_ human redeeming qualities, but he was just one-dimensional pulp fiction “Booo! Hisssss!” evil, then when they added Ramsay, who if anything is worse (but luckily not as powerful) it was too much. Now we just have one completely totally evil character. A pity Joff and Ram never met as they’d totally have been gay for each other. - Well, interesting except for Daenarys, who to me is the Cousin Oliver of the WESTEROS BUNCH or the “Harry and Hermione wandering in the woods for what seems like bloody forever already” segment, which I blame on her lack of interaction with all of the other characters (not unlike Francis in MALCOLM IN THE MIDDLE). ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/186 "2014-04-15T01:31:32Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Ser Lorris > [@DigitalC](#): > > I think this thread is going to win the price for most creative spellings of “Cersei” and “Loras” out of all our GoT threads, and we are only on page 2! In my defense, maybe in the books he’s both a knight _and_ a [commune in the Loiret department in north-central France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorris). We just don’t know. Having just watched the episode again, there are a couple of moments that I had forgotten about after all the excitement at the end of the episode. Moment #1 - It’s great watching Joffrey hack up the book. But it was even better when, earlier, we see him give a polite thank you to Tyrion for the book and say that they should all value wisdom. Tyrion gives him a look that says, “Who are you and what have you done with my nephew?” (It did take a _look_ from Tywin to induce the politeness, but it was still unexpected.) Moment #2 - “War is war, but killing a man at a wedding - horrid.” Heh. Moment #3 - Bronn says the name of the knight whose wife he’s fucking is “Laygood”. Apparently _not_, ifyouknowhatImean. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/187 "2014-04-15T01:53:23Z")
Refresh my memory: Does Tyrion know that Jaime is Joffrey’s father? And this may be a stupid question, but does Jaime know he’s Joffrey’s father? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/188 "2014-04-15T01:59:37Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Refresh my memory: Does Tyrion know that Jaime is Joffrey’s father? And this may be a stupid question, but does Jaime know he’s Joffrey’s father? I believe so for both. I think Tyrion made a joke about it before, coming awfully close to pointing it out. Jaime must know. He has two kids by her, I think. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/189 "2014-04-15T02:08:32Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I believe so for both. I think Tyrion made a joke about it before, coming awfully close to pointing it out. > > Jaime must know. He has two kids by her, I think. Three, actually. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are all J+C. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/190 "2014-04-15T02:09:35Z")
After watching the episode again, there is little doubt in my mind that Olenna killed Joffery as a previous poster posited. She CLEARLY takes a jewel from Sansa’s necklace, which likely had a liquid poison. This is further bolstered by the fool rushing to get Sansa out of there. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/191 "2014-04-15T02:10:05Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I believe so for both. I think Tyrion made a joke about it before, coming awfully close to pointing it out. > > Jaime must know. He has two kids by her, I think. 3 actually. Well, 2 now, I guess. Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella in Dorne. Ninja’s by **jayjay** ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/192 "2014-04-15T02:33:56Z")
I love how they cut right from the scene with Theon to someone cutting a sausage at the wedding feast. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/193 "2014-04-15T03:02:11Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > The poison would have had to be liquid, and I don’t think Sansa would have needed much encouragement to vacate the area, if she were the one to have administered it. > > Declan Essence of NightShade - from the Battle of Blackwater ep. Maester, “10 drops will…” Cercie, “I know what 10 drops will do.” Seems the elegant way for a lady to get out of an unpleasant situation. As someone upthread mentioned, it’s possible that Sansa had some with her. She seemed intent on ending her own suffering in the previous ep. Though, I did watch the excessively spoilered screen cap scene again. Grammy Terrel definitely pulled a stone off Sansa’s necklace. Just seems like such an awkward setup. It’s not like she would have been frisked at the door. If she needed a stone on a necklace, surely she could have just worn one of her own. Or put the stone in her damn purse and carried it in. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/194 "2014-04-15T03:18:32Z")
Perhaps the grandmother deliberately put the poison on Sansa’s necklace so that Sansa would be blamed? And when Margery called out that Joffrey was choking, I thought she seemed to be faking it. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/195 "2014-04-15T03:33:11Z")
When Tyrion sent Myrcella off to Dorne it seemed reasonable at the time. The city was about to be invaded, why not get her to safety. Cersie’s reaction just seemed foolish. Now that we know what the Dorne think of the Lanisters, it seems like a terrible idea. There must have been better safer places to send the girl. Was Tyrion really ignorant of hwo the Dorne felt? Was Cersie? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/196 "2014-04-15T03:44:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Perhaps the grandmother deliberately put the poison on Sansa’s necklace so that Sansa would be blamed? And when Margery called out that Joffrey was choking, I thought she seemed to be faking it. She sure waited long enough. Tyrion was the first to show some concern. I was sorry for Joffrey for a second or two, thinking “he’s just a kid, really”, and he looked so scared. Then I remembered Ned and Ros and how he tormented Sansa. If Lady Olenna was responsible, I don’t think she did it just to protect Margaery. She had to be thinking of what Joffrey could do to what’s left of Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/197 "2014-04-15T04:01:56Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > During the episode, I was thinking that Joffrey reminded me of the boy from the short story, “It’s a Good Life.” Me too. > [@VarlosZ](#): > > They follow male primogeniture, so Tommen’s next in line, but I think that Cersei’s technically in charge for the time being as Queen Regent (once again), since Tommen is still a child. Cersei may be nominally Queen Regent, but her father’s the one with real power. Cersei’s back the same position she was before. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > What motive would Margaery have for poisoning her husband? She doesn’t get any power now. Well, she doesn’t have to be Joffrey’s wife, isn’t that motive enough for a gal? > [@Bricker](#): > > What’s the minimum legal marriage age in Westoros? > > I suspect that – especially for royals – there’s no real barrier for Margery to marry Tommen now. Well girls are considered old enough to marry as soon has they as they get their period, but betrothals can take place before that. Think for a second as to what the analogous sign of maturity would be for a boy. 😉 > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > In season one Sansa asks her Septa what would happen if she only had daughters with Joffrey and she’s told that the throne would go to Joff’s little brother. Presumably that’s what will happen here, with Cersei back as Queen Regent… The Iron Throne follows semi-salic law; females can only inherit in the complete absence of eligible male dynasts. And since the only other eligible male Baratheon is Stannis, a rebel, the next in line after Tommen is his elder sister Myrcella. Likewise Daenerys’s claim to the Iron Throne is based on her being the last living Targaryen now that Viserys is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/198 "2014-04-15T04:25:15Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > When Tyrion sent Myrcella off to Dorne it seemed reasonable at the time. The city was about to be invaded, why not get her to safety. Cersie’s reaction just seemed foolish. Now that we know what the Dorne think of the Lanisters, it seems like a terrible idea. There must have been better safer places to send the girl. Was Tyrion really ignorant of hwo the Dorne felt? Was Cersie? Isn’t she a hostage/child bride? I’m sure Tyrion thought that a marriage connecting the two families was a good idea. For those suspecting Cersie for sending Pycelle away–Maester Pycelle is back at the wedding feast in time for the pie scene. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/199 "2014-04-15T07:51:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Remember that Sansa warned them both that Joffrey is a monster. She has a good reason for not wanting her dear granddaughter to remain married to the guy for a moment longer than necessary. No consummation = no wedding. In other words, Joff and Marge were not yet officially married. If there had been a plan to make Margaery Joff’s legal heir - which wouldn’t have happened anyway, but whatever - then killing J **before the marriage was consummated** would ruin the plan. If you can remember back to the scene where Joffrey publicly dumps Sansa and agrees to marry Marge, M publicly declares that she never shagged Renly and was therefore not a actually married to him. ETA: Margaery is not a widow because she is still, officially, never married and (for all anyone knows, and possibly really) a virgin. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/200 "2014-04-15T07:52:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > … and a show that takes itself seriously like GoT has basically never given a cutesy sort of shout out like this… Not a spoiler [The Iron Throne May Feature Multiple Movie Swords, Including Gandalf's Glamdring - IGN](http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/16/the-iron-throne-may-feature-multiple-movie-swords-including-gandalfs-glamdring) but a possible shout out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=11)