# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/221 "2014-04-15T15:29:35Z")
The only one who doesn’t hate Tyrion is Jaime. Their mother died during Tyrion’s birth; Lord Tywin blames Tyrion for his mother’s death, maybe Cersei does also. Or it could just be vanity, that she doesn’t want her gene-line being intertwined with his. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/222 "2014-04-15T15:38:43Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It’s so needlessly convoluted that it will be disappointing if that is how the assassination was carried out. Somewhat reminiscent of a series of machinations in _Breaking Bad_ which I won’t spoil, just in case. > > Does anyone believe Shae stayed on the ship to Pentos? I think there was something funky in the way Bronn reported it, and that he did something with her, probably on behalf of Tywin, rather than her voluntarily leaving. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/223 "2014-04-15T15:43:39Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Neither one is a sadist like Ramsey or Joffrey, but while Tywin will ruthlessly do whatever is necessary, Stannis clearly feels very constrained by legality and his beliefs about what are right and wrong. Maybe he used to, but he’s clearly now the ultimate sellout. He’ll talk your ears off about what’s right and legal when the conclusion is that he’s the rightful king but there’s nothing Tywin’s done that he wouldn’t do if Melisandre encouraged him to. As I said in the post of mine you quoted, they’re very different people, so you’re preaching to the choir as to the nature of their characters and motivations, but the nature of their evils are identical. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/224 "2014-04-15T15:47:45Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think there was something funky in the way Bronn reported it, and that he did something with her, probably on behalf of Tywin, rather than her voluntarily leaving. My guess is that Bronn was followed, and Shae was intercepted after she set sail. Tywin’s got her. I think she’ll join Jack Gleeson in looking for new employment soon, Bronn too. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/225 "2014-04-15T15:49:42Z")
The whole family, except for Jaime, seems to hate Tyrion because he isn’t perfect and killed his mother. I think, although I’m not exactly sure, that she died giving birth to him. So it’s all his fault. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/226 "2014-04-15T15:59:13Z")
Can anyone explain what Cersei meant to say to Jaime when she was berating him about his being away too long. I really failed to understand her point. But, was she threatening him somehow? Or was she telling him that some part of their relationship was now over? Did she mean there was no longer going to be any sex between them? If so, I can’t believe that he would be very upset about that because he could probably find another female to truly love very easily. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/227 "2014-04-15T15:59:42Z")
Having just seen the episode last night: yay! Good riddance to bad rubbish. And I see no reason to suspect anybody other than Olenna. There was the whole deal with the beads and Tyrion appeared to take the poison wine from right in front of her. She had means and opportunity and you could argue that she had one motive or another, and it might be politically and financially inconvenient for the Lannisters to accuse the Tyrells if they suspect them. I don’t see any motive for Cersei since her one overriding impulse, shaky as she has become, is to love her children because they’re the only thing that’s really hers. And if Oberyn wanted Joffrey dead he’d have just stood up and chopped him in half. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/228 "2014-04-15T16:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > ETA: Margaery is not a widow because she is still, officially, never married and (for all anyone knows, and possibly really) a virgin. I recall a scene in which Sansa is baffled about Margaery’s seeming to know a lot about sex. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/229 "2014-04-15T16:20:07Z")
I think someone needs to recut Joffrey’s death scene into a Sunny Delight commercial. Don’t drink the Purple Stuff! ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/230 "2014-04-15T16:33:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Having just seen the episode last night: yay! Good riddance to bad rubbish. Oh but I bet we’ll miss him now that he’s gone. > [@](#): > > And I see no reason to suspect anybody other than Olenna. There was the whole deal with the beads and Tyrion appeared to take the poison wine from right in front of her. She had means and opportunity and you could argue that she had one motive or another, and it might be politically and financially inconvenient for the Lannisters to accuse the Tyrells if they suspect them. I don’t see any motive for Cersei since her one overriding impulse, shaky as she has become, is to love her children because they’re the only thing that’s really hers. And if Oberyn wanted Joffrey dead he’d have just stood up and chopped him in half. Olenna fits timeline-wise but I really don’t see any incentive. She’s out a grip of cash for putting on the wedding, her granddaughter misses out on the throne, and she’s not at any risk of Joffrey’s wrath. If anything, Olenna is pretty much at the very bottom of the suspects list, motives-wise. Even Cersei stands more to gain than Olenna. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I recall a scene in which Sansa is baffled about Margaery’s seeming to know a lot about sex. It was at that point as a non-book reader that I thought, “Huh, are these two supposed to be the same age?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/231 "2014-04-15T16:39:26Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Oh but I bet we’ll miss him now that he’s gone. Only if it means more torture/torment time for Theon, but at least he’s not on the rack anymore. > [@](#): > > Olenna fits timeline-wise but I really don’t see any incentive. She’s out a grip of cash for putting on the wedding, her granddaughter misses out on the throne, and she’s not at any risk of Joffrey’s wrath. If anything, Olenna is pretty much at the very bottom of the suspects list, motives-wise. Margaery is still available and they’ll need to marry Tommen off to someone. Maybe he’ll be less horrible than Joffrey. The Lannisters are still in their debt, maybe more than ever. And there could be some missing piece we don’t know about. That seems like to me. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/232 "2014-04-15T16:41:14Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > …what if—What if he’s not actually dead? > > Shoot, we’ve seen plenty of weird shit happen on this show. Well … didn’t we see some man with special powers that could bring a dead person back to life? However … I think that for that to work, it requires two or more willing people and I don’t think there are two or more people who would be willing to bring that nasty little shit back to life. So, my guess would be that Joff is dead and buried and forever more dead. Really dead and truly dead and dead forever more. Dead. Dead. Dead. And everybody is happy happy happy that he is dead! ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/233 "2014-04-15T16:50:47Z")
It would be an interesting storyline to have him be not dead bu instead severely injured by the poison, maybe even paralyzed. Would it humanize him or make him even more of an insufferable twit? But yeah, the king is dead. Long live the king. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/234 "2014-04-15T16:58:20Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > And everybody is happy happy happy that he is dead! They should’ve had Pharrell guest starring instead of Sigur Ros. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/235 "2014-04-15T17:01:50Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It would be an interesting storyline to have him be not dead bu instead severely injured by the poison, maybe even paralyzed. Would it humanize him or make him even more of an insufferable twit? In his weakened physical state, have him play Charles to Cersei’s Elizabeth? Cersei is Queen Regnant until baby bro can rule for himself? Snide remarks of the Purple Prince echo in the shadows much like how there are snide remarks about the Imp? I like it, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/236 "2014-04-15T17:02:30Z")
I’m going to miss Joffrey. If I’m going to be completely honest, I didn’t especially enjoy the scenes with Robb Stark or his mother so as far as the show goes it didn’t really bother me that they were killed off. But any scene that had Joffrey in it I was glued to the screen. That little punk was definitely entertaining. I think his unpredictable nature with his absolute power made his scenes exciting. I will definitely miss that. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/237 "2014-04-15T17:21:53Z")
My probablem with Joffrey wasn’t that he was eeevvvilll. We need evil characters. My problem is that whenever he made a big scene in public it was downright cringeworthy. He was like an evil Michael Scott. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/238 "2014-04-15T17:31:15Z")
Okay-- so bastards in the North take the last name “Snow” and bastards from Dorne take the last name “Sand”…in series have we seen other examples of bastard last names? Also… Stannis seemed like the only one concerned about the notice from the Castle Black (or rather he was the only one we saw be informed about the trouble north of the wall). Melisandre even said that THAT was the real war… and yet here some weeks later…Stannis and Co. don’t seem too concerned. At least he spared Davos (my favorite character). ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/239 "2014-04-15T17:31:39Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Olenna fits timeline-wise but I really don’t see any incentive. She’s out a grip of cash for putting on the wedding, her granddaughter misses out on the throne, and she’s not at any risk of Joffrey’s wrath. If anything, Olenna is pretty much at the very bottom of the suspects list, motives-wise. Even Cersei stands more to gain than Olenna. I disagree about Olenna having motive. Margery was marrying Joffrey based upon the arrangement between the QoT and Tywin, an arrangement that would benefit the Lannisters and was attractive to House Tyrell in terms of having their family sharing the throne in ruling Westeros. Naturally that means any children of Joffrey and Margaery would also be their blood on the throne. Joffrey’s death, assuming no one discovers it was done by the QoT, doesn’t change that. It is still beneficial to the Lannisters to enter into a marriage with House Tyrell. Margery is still ‘technically’ unmarried as the wedding was never consummated. And Tommen is the next in line for the Lannisters. Just as no one publicly questioned Margaery marrying Joffrey even though she was previously married to Renly, for political purposes no one will question her now marrying Tommen. And Tommen will be vastly easier for Margaery and House Tyrell to manipulate/control than Joffrey. For House Tyrell, this is a win-win situation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/240 "2014-04-15T17:39:01Z")
I read another review or two that suggest Tywin had some pretty strong motives. Could he and Olenna have made this happen together? If a sane king is good for the Tyrells, it’s also good for Tywin. He doesn’t give a crap about Cersei’s pain, and Tyrio is right there to take the fall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=13)