# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/261 "2014-04-15T18:54:34Z")
I think Stannis truly has bought into Melissandre’s belief system, and he really really _really_ wants to be King of Westeros, but he still has some moral lines he just won’t cross. He wouldn’t kill Gendry; he didn’t kill Davos. If Melissandre said the fiery god demanded that his daughter die, I’m sure he’d reject that advice, too. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Umm, I’m not sure what you’re saying, and whether or not you’re agreeing with me… I’m agreeing with you. We never know how many times we have avoided death by happenstance, by a second, minute or hour. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/262 "2014-04-15T18:57:36Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > He wouldn’t kill Gendry; he didn’t kill Davos. If Melissandre said the fiery god demanded that his daughter die, I’m sure he’d reject that advice, too. He sentenced Davos to death, Melissandre saved him, sense that he would be needed. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/263 "2014-04-15T19:05:08Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > He sentenced Davos to death, Melissandre saved him, sense that he would be needed. He sentenced Davos to death for treason, which by his overly-black-and-white moral code, Davos was in fact guilty of. He did not just say “hmm, my life would be more convenient if this Davos character wasn’t around, OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!”, which is what Tywin would happily do (although knowing Tywin, he’d have that be one part of a 14 part scheme in which Davos’s death got blamed on someone else, so Davos’s family would go fight them, they’d all kill each other, and all their money would end up inherited by their sole remaining heir, who happened to be an old man of failing health married to… a Lannister). ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/264 "2014-04-15T19:05:38Z")
Is there no scenario wherein Westeros can be ruled by a queen? For instance, suppose Cersei had no male childeren and Robert no male brothers. What would happen then? Also, are marriages nullified if they haven’t been consummated? And this has been mentioned on the show? In that event, I guess Tyrion and Sansa aren’t really married. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/265 "2014-04-15T19:13:14Z")
I’m sorry guys but I’m still not buying the Tywin/Olenna motive here. Even if the “we can’t control him so he must be taken out” motive is sufficient, it still doesn’t make sense to do it the day of the wedding. There are dozens of meals beforehand where it would have been less risky and less expensive to poison him. Given the long list of people that want him dead, there would be no shortage of a patsy to the point where Tyrion gets the finger of blame. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/266 "2014-04-15T19:13:38Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Well, she doesn’t have to be Joffrey’s wife, isn’t that motive enough for a gal? I seem to recall that Margery said that she didn’t want to be _a_ queen, but she wanted to be _the_ queen. That’s the motivation. > [@Polerius](#): > > Is it at all likely that it’s Cersei that killed Joffrey? > [ul] > [li]She thought he was an uncontrollable monster[/li][li]With the wedding, she stopped being Queen Regent and lost her power, and this way she is once again Queen Regent and has got her power back[/li][li]She gets to frame Tyrion, whom she hates (can someone remind me why?)[/li][/ul] > So, it would be a win-win situation for her Cersei also despised Tyrion for killing mom at birth. Pretty sure she told that to Tyrion’s face a couple of seasons ago. Also, the wine that was poured in Joffrey’s goblet was from the carafe in front of Cersei. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think there was something funky in the way Bronn reported it, and that he did something with her, probably on behalf of Tywin, rather than her voluntarily leaving. Maybe Cersei intercepted Shae as well and/or paid Bronn off. [“Have her brought to the Tower of the Hand before the wedding.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEqcMfmshM8&feature=player_detailpage#t=84) > [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Well … didn’t we see some man with special powers that could bring a dead person back to life? > > However … I think that for that to work, it requires two or more willing people and I don’t think there are two or more people who would be willing to bring that nasty little shit back to life. > > So, my guess would be that Joff is dead and buried and forever more dead. > > Really dead and truly dead and dead forever more. Dead. Dead. Dead. > > And everybody is happy happy happy that he is dead! Where is the actress for Marcella…she could have had a follow up to this…[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDmxjgKLits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDmxjgKLits) > [@Marley23](#): > > I read another review or two that suggest Tywin had some pretty strong motives. Could he and Olenna have made this happen together? If a sane king is good for the Tyrells, it’s also good for Tywin. He doesn’t give a crap about Cersei’s pain, and Tyrio is right there to take the fall. And shooing Mace Tyrell away when Tywin and Olenna were conversing about “things” in the world might give one to suspect a pact of some sort between Tywin and Olenna. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Or Cersei - she’s pretty friggin’ evil. > > As others have mentioned, she did seem awfully knowledgeable about sex for someone who should still be a virgin. > > I can see the culprit being Cersei - she’s not at all a moral person. I’m not sure why she hates Tyrion, beyond her just hating everyone who isn’t Jamie or her kids (or maybe just because she can’t control him). > I can see that, too - I think one thing we have to remember about Olenna is that she does what she wants to do, and she’s an old lady - she might have done it for a good reason, or for no particular reason beyond hurting the Lannisters and protecting her granddaughter as one of her last acts in her life. I can also see the Tyrells benefitting from dumping evil Joffrey and going after betrothal to Tommen, and Tywin being okay with his insane grandson being killed - Tywin is pragmatic enough to know that that was going to happen sooner rather than later. …and to me, this seems like the logical conclusion. Whether Cersei is in on this plot or not, is immaterial…BUT if she wasn’t, then her white hot hate for Tyrion was wittingly stoked by Tywin to make him the fall guy and keep the pact between him and Olenna secret. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/267 "2014-04-15T19:14:56Z")
Anyone else disappointed that Aurya was not the one to end Joffery? ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/268 "2014-04-15T19:18:24Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Is there no scenario wherein Westeros can be ruled by a queen? For instance, suppose Cersei had no male childeren and Robert no male brothers. What would happen then? > > Also, are marriages nullified if they haven’t been consummated? And this has been mentioned on the show? In that event, I guess Tyrion and Sansa aren’t really married. They’re treating Sansa as the true heir to Winterfell right now (assuming that all of the boys are dead), so it goes male descendants first, then female descendants, and then on to brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. So if we treat the children as legitimate and there was no rebellion going on, the line of succession would be: Robert Joffrey Tommen Myrcella Stannis (if he took power then his daughter would be next in line) Renly The closest related Baratheon cousin. Which I’ve mentioned before, but it’s kinda surprising we don’t hear more about any other Baratheons or Starks. It seemed like there were Lannisters all over the country. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/269 "2014-04-15T19:21:08Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Is there no scenario wherein Westeros can be ruled by a queen? For instance, suppose Cersei had no male childeren and Robert no male brothers. What would happen then? If we’re assuming Cersei still has a daughter in that scenario, the daughter would become queen. The Baratheons are the royal house, and Cersei isn’t a Baratheon by blood. Neither is Margaery. So they can’t rule unless they have a living Baratheon husband. Cersei’s daughter, on the other hand, is considered a Baratheon (even though we know she isn’t one). ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/270 "2014-04-15T19:22:52Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m sorry guys but I’m still not buying the Tywin/Olenna motive here. Even if the “we can’t control him so he must be taken out” motive is sufficient, it still doesn’t make sense to do it the day of the wedding. There are dozens of meals beforehand where it would have been less risky and less expensive to poison him. Given the long list of people that want him dead, there would be no shortage of a patsy to the point where Tyrion gets the finger of blame. The wedding reception tradition is that at some point during the reception the crowd grabs the bride and groom and spirits them away to the marital bed while making bawdy comments about consummating the union. If I recall correctly, they also are a sort of witness to the act. So no, it had to be done before that occurred at the reception or else Margaery would no longer be able to marry Tommen if Joffrey dies at any point after that. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/271 "2014-04-15T19:26:18Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Also, the wine that was poured in Joffrey’s goblet was from the carafe in front of Cersei. I wonder if the poison was meant for Cersei? She was being a royal bitch toward Margaery, and if Margaery and Olenna had plans to manipulate Joffrey, then Cersei was a great big obstacle in their path. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/272 "2014-04-15T19:28:45Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s clearly not the case. Melisandre said “if you burn Gendry, it will get you power”. The ONLY reason not to burn Gendry was that Gendry was an innocent and his nephew. And he did not burn Gendry. He was going to burn Gendry. The leeches were a test to see if his blood would work. As soon as he discovered it worked (or believed that he discovered - it’s obviously ambiguous whether they really worked) he discarded most of what good he had left in him and was going to move ahead with his plans but Davos set Gendry free. Again, I’m not arguing the differences between his motivations/methods and Tywin’s. But Stannis isn’t bound by honor or law or anything. He very well may have been in the past, and who knows, he might change in the future, but for now it seems he’s killed that part of himself. He endured his older brother taking the crown and giving Renly the family hold while he was left with the scraps and now it’s finally his time- there is no “right” for him other than his right to the throne. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/273 "2014-04-15T19:31:45Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m sorry guys but I’m still not buying the Tywin/Olenna motive here. Even if the “we can’t control him so he must be taken out” motive is sufficient, it still doesn’t make sense to do it the day of the wedding. There are dozens of meals beforehand where it would have been less risky and less expensive to poison him. Given the long list of people that want him dead, there would be no shortage of a patsy to the point where Tyrion gets the finger of blame. If Olenna is behind it, the wedding feasts are her best opportunity. If Tywin is behind it, he has to be careful not to poison a family member. Cersei, Tommen, and Tyrion were at the table – Tywin might not care about Tyrion but he wouldn’t risk harm to Cersei and Tommen. Olenna doesn’t have the same care about collateral damage – she just has to be sure Margaery doesn’t drink the wine. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/274 "2014-04-15T19:38:06Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > I wonder if the poison was meant for Cersei? She was being a royal bitch toward Margaery, and if Margaery and Olenna had plans to manipulate Joffrey, then Cersei was a great big obstacle in their path. Maybe getting the poison into the goblet (from Sansa’s crystal) BEFORE the wine was poured into it made that particular carafe irrelevant, but then the plot would have included Sansa since she was the only one with the opportunity to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/275 "2014-04-15T19:38:39Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m sorry guys but I’m still not buying the Tywin/Olenna motive here. Even if the “we can’t control him so he must be taken out” motive is sufficient, it still doesn’t make sense to do it the day of the wedding. There are dozens of meals beforehand where it would have been less risky and less expensive to poison him. Given the long list of people that want him dead, there would be no shortage of a patsy to the point where Tyrion gets the finger of blame. Au contraire. A big fat [del]Greek[/del]Dornish wedding means that finding who did it is much, much more complicated as dozens upon dozens of people have opportunity to slip the fatal mickey ; and multiplies the number of people with motives tenfold. They’re all there. They brought in dozens of temp cooks for the feast, hundreds of serving girls, entertainers, splayed vaginists and bodyguards. It’s chaos. It’s great cover. Re: the expense, who cares ? For one thing, since medieval economies run on crops and the Tyrells are hogging all the fertile lands, they must be pretty loaded. For another King of France Henry the IVth, who converted to Catholicism when it was politically expedient, would quip that “Paris is well worth a Mass”. What do you reckon a budding dynasty’s worth ? As for Tyrion getting the blame, that’s entirely coincidental (and maybe that’s confirmation bias, but in the background the Queen of Thorns seems a bit… regretful ? about that). I suppose Joffrey being a complete cunt to _someone_ in his general vicinity always was as solid a prediction you could make, but… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/276 "2014-04-15T19:50:13Z")
Unless there was an understanding between Lacy Oleanna and Tywin, then there is no reason to believe Margaery is going to be married to Tommen. The marriage with Joffery was negotiated when the Lannisters needed the Tyrells because the war with the Starks was going badly. Now that the war is won and Cersei is engaged to Loras there is no reason for Tywin to marry the new king off to a Tyrell. There will probably be a bidding war to see who get to marry the new king. There is no way Tywin would want Tyrion framed since having Tyrion as Lord of Winterfell means Tywin’s grandsons would control all of Westeros. Maybe that changes now that Sansa is on the lam, but it was never the plan. Stannis seems like an overlooked suspect in Joffery’s death. He definetly has the motivation and the lack of scruples. Also there must be alot of people in Kings Landing who were loyal to Robert and hate all of the Lannisters taking over. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/277 "2014-04-15T19:53:07Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Umm, I’m not sure what you’re saying, and whether or not you’re agreeing with me. > > If the objection to the “Olenna and Margaery poisoned Joffery” theory is “well, the plan depended on them being lucky, how could they have known whether they’d have access to Joffrey’s goblet while everyone else was suitably distracted”, then my response to that objection is “maybe they just wouldn’t have gone through with it if the chance hadn’t presented itself”. If Olenna couldn’t slip some poison in a goblet unnoticed, then she is not the old broad I think she is. 🙂 > [@Oakminster](#): > > Sansa has neither the wile nor the will to do something like that. Her sister, sure…but not Sansa. She’s like a fourth or fifth understudy to a reserve pawn on the gameboard here. That’s what would make that such a curveball - she’s finally pushed to the point where she was willing to kill Joffrey. > [@Tangent](#): > > I wonder if the poison was meant for Cersei? She was being a royal bitch toward Margaery, and if Margaery and Olenna had plans to manipulate Joffrey, then Cersei was a great big obstacle in their path. Interesting - Cersei’s death wouldn’t be mourned by many people. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/278 "2014-04-15T19:57:19Z")
An afterthought - I think we need to figure out who benefits from Joffrey dying before the marriage was consummated, or a son born to Margaery. If it was the Tyrells, I think Margaery could have killed Joffrey any time in the future, since she’d have intimate access to him, and they’d be in a better position after a consummation and much better position after Margaery gave birth to a son of Joffrey’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/279 "2014-04-15T20:03:20Z")
I don’t read the books, so this is pure speculation: I believe there were two plots, and that the way they came together inadvertently killed Joffrey before he was supposed to die. PLOT 1: Olenna and Margaery know that Joffrey was unmanageable (and perfectly capable of killing either of them at any time). They plotted to kill Joffrey–on a delayed basis. The poison wouldn’t have struck until at least one night had gone by–enabling Margaery to announce that the marriage had been consummated, and that she was pregnant with the new heir. (If she really hadn’t gotten pregnant by Joffrey on their wedding night she could have accomplished that feat in another way by another man.) The reason for the rigmarole of the “bead from Sansa’s necklace” was basically insurance: if someone suspected Joffrey had been poisoned, it could be mentioned that Sansa had been seen at the wedding feast with a bead missing. Blame could thus be shifted to Sansa. Margaery would still be Queen Regent (for her unborn child. Perhaps the plotting would have extended to making sure that baby was a son, with a male infant ready to be substituted for any inconvenient girl baby. The Tyrells would have been in charge of the palace and could handle these matters discreetly. Court fool Ser Dontos, who gave Sansa the necklace, was part of this, of course. His asking Sansa to leave was intended to provide yet another “evidence” that Sansa had been the poisoner; people would remember that she left the wedding feast early and would see that as “proof” of her guilt But it all went wrong because of… PLOT 2: This plot’s author is less clear, but my top candidate would be Oberyn: this plot was intended to make hundreds of wedding guests ill (but not dead) and thus create a major embarrassment for the Lannisters. This plot was: poisoned pie. The shot of the dead doves was ambiguous: yes, they could have been killed by Joffrey’s sword…but there was suspiciously little blood. I think that the doves who didn’t eat the pie, or not much of it, flew off, but a few who ate a lot of the pie…died. The pie was intended to induce mass illness in the guests (which of course would kill the much-smaller-than-humans birds). But what was completely unexpected was the effect of both drinking the bead-poisoned wine and eating from the pie (and did we see anyone else eat from the pie?) Joffrey consumed both and the effect of the combination killed him immediately, rather than in a few days as planned. The timing of his death is unfortunate for the Tyrells, though no doubt they’ll try “Margaery should marry Tommen” (straight out of English history, of course, with Catharine of Aragon going from Prince Arthur to Prince Henry, future Henry VIII) as a Plan B. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/280 "2014-04-15T20:07:07Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Interesting - Cersei’s death wouldn’t be mourned by many people. I’m sure plenty of people hate her, but I don’t see much of a reason to kill her if she’s no longer the queen regent. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > An afterthought - I think we need to figure out who benefits from Joffrey dying before the marriage was consummated, or a son born to Margaery. If it was the Tyrells, I think Margaery could have killed Joffrey any time in the future, since she’d have intimate access to him, and they’d be in a better position after a consummation and much better position after Margaery gave birth to a son of Joffrey’s. But it might be hard for her to get away with it. At a big public event like a wedding, there are plenty of fall guys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=15)