# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/281 "2014-04-15T20:08:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Unless there was an understanding between Lacy Oleanna and Tywin, then there is no reason to believe Margaery is going to be married to Tommen. The marriage with Joffery was negotiated when the Lannisters needed the Tyrells because the war with the Starks was going badly. Now that the war is won and Cersei is engaged to Loras there is no reason for Tywin to marry the new king off to a Tyrell. According to Jaime, the Tyrells are still feeding the realm. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/282 "2014-04-15T20:10:45Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If it was the Tyrells, I think Margaery could have killed Joffrey any time in the future, since she’d have intimate access to him, and they’d be in a better position after a consummation and much better position after Margaery gave birth to a son of Joffrey’s. That plan does entail _having sex_ with _Joffrey_. Which could be construed as a minor drawback. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/283 "2014-04-15T20:17:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That plan does entail _having sex_ with _Joffrey_. Which could be construed as a minor drawback. Especially if he plans to use a gigantic wooden torture-dildo or perhaps some masturbatory human dart practice. You know, like usual. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/284 "2014-04-15T20:28:08Z")
Well, in terms of the poisoning I’m all about Olenna and Margaery. Those two are way too smart. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/285 "2014-04-15T20:56:52Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > So no, it had to be done before that occurred at the reception or else Margaery would no longer be able to marry Tommen if Joffrey dies at any point after that. I don’t think we have any information on whether widowed-wife-of-previous-king-who-presumably-had-sex-with-him would be for any reason disqualified as wife-of-new-king, at least from a legal standpoint. As far as whether the Lannisters would want Margaery to marry Tommen, well, all of the leverage that was there before is still there. If the Tyrells take their grain and go home, the capital is still in a terrible shape. So if that alliance made sense before, it makes sense now (as long as the Lannisters don’t think the Tyrells are poisoners). ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/286 "2014-04-15T21:02:16Z")
I’m pretty certain that I recognized the woman who presided over Tryion’s trial by combat in this most recent episode - Joffrey’s Wedding and Assassination (Season 4 Episode 2). She struck me as an extremely bizarre character and I hoped that she would somehow reappear because I expected that whatever her story, it would prove to be very interesting. Does anyone know what she was doing in this most recent episode and whether we should expect to see her again? I couldn’t follow the plot as it related to her. When I saw her breast feeding her young son (who, at the time, was around the age of 13), she seemed right on the edge of insanity. Can anyone here explain what she was doing in this most recent episode (Season 4 Episode 2 - The Lion and the Rose)? I couldn’t follow just what her participation was in this episode and I sure would appreciate anyone’s explanation as to what she was doing. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/287 "2014-04-15T21:02:31Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > He was going to burn Gendry. The leeches were a test to see if his blood would work. As soon as he discovered it worked (or believed that he discovered - it’s obviously ambiguous whether they really worked) he discarded most of what good he had left in him and was going to move ahead with his plans but Davos set Gendry free. > > Again, I’m not arguing the differences between his motivations/methods and Tywin’s. But Stannis isn’t bound by honor or law or anything. He very well may have been in the past, and who knows, he might change in the future, but for now it seems he’s killed that part of himself. He endured his older brother taking the crown and giving Renly the family hold while he was left with the scraps and now it’s finally his time- there is no “right” for him other than his right to the throne. I think we may just have to agree to disagree. Stannis is imperfect, and he sometimes lets lust (for women or power) overcome his better judgment, but I think that when he’s making a choice of what to do, what is lawful and right is VERY important to him, and usually (if not always) is the deciding factor. For Tywin, those are just words that he manipulates at his whim. If Stannis sent out some underlings to do a mission, and then word came back that those underlings had massacred and raped innocent villagers, Stannis would have them executed immediately. Tywin would be upset with them because they’d been sloppy enough to let word get out. I think there are a few interesting questions about Stannis and Melisandre and their motivations which are so far unanswered… does Melisandre really believe everything she’s saying? Does she think Stannis is actually the chosen one in her religion? And to what extent does Stannis now buy into that? But I think the show has made it very clear that Stannis is someone who thinks that there is almost always a right and wrong thing to do, and that matters to him and informs his decisions. (While we’re on the subject of Stannis and who-killed-Joffrey, let’s not forget that Melisandre did some leech magic to kill Robb, Joffrey and Balon. Two of those three are now dead, although it’s pretty clear that if the leech magic was at work, it’s magic that works through intermediaries, not directly.) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/288 "2014-04-15T21:06:20Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I’m pretty certain that I recognized the woman who presided over Tryion’s trial by combat in this most recent episode - Joffrey’s Wedding and Assassination (Season 4 Episode 2). She struck me as an extremely bizarre character and I hoped that she would somehow reappear because I expected that whatever her story, it would prove to be very interesting. > Does anyone know what she was doing in this most recent episode and whether we should expect to see her again? I couldn’t follow the plot as it related to her. When I saw her breast feeding her young son (who, at the time, was around the age of 13), she seemed right on the edge of insanity. > Can anyone here explain what she was doing in this most recent episode (Season 4 Episode 2 - The Lion and the Rose)? > I couldn’t follow just what her participation was in this episode and I sure would appreciate anyone’s explanation as to what she was doing. That was Catelyn Stark’s sister Lysa Arryn. I didn’t notice her being present at the Joffrey wedding…where was she? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/289 "2014-04-15T21:09:51Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I’m pretty certain that I recognized the woman who presided over Tryion’s trial by combat in this most recent episode - Joffrey’s Wedding and Assassination (Season 4 Episode 2). She struck me as an extremely bizarre character and I hoped that she would somehow reappear because I expected that whatever her story, it would prove to be very interesting. So, remember Catelyn Stark, Ed’s wife, Robb’s mother, recently got her throat slit at the Red Wedding? She was born Catelyn Tully. She had a sister, Lysa Tully. While they were young, an ambitious young schemer named Baelish (who would grow up to be Littlefinger) had a crush on Cat, and thus presumably knew both sisters. Lysa married John Arryn, who was a good friend of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon, and became Lysa Arryn. John Arryn was hand of the king for Robert Baratheon was murdered right before season 1, and the mystery of that murder is what more or less kicked the events of the show into action. Lysa became paranoid that the Lannisters had done it and fled to The Eyrie, which is a mountaintop fortress that is a traditional stronghold of the Arryns, along with her son Robin, who she breastfeeds even though he seems much too old for that. Back in season 1, when Catelyn arrested Tyrion (for trying to kill Bran), she took him to The Eyrie because it was nearby, heavily fortified, and her sister was there. Her sister turned out to be even loopier than she remembered, Tyrion had a trial by combat, became friends with Bronn (who did the combatting), and then all the main characters left. We haven’t seen Lysa since then, but when Littlefinger sailed off last season, we were told he was on his way to the Eyrie to marry Lysa and thus assume some noble title or other (I’ve forgotten precisely which one). ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/290 "2014-04-15T21:12:08Z")
Well, I sure do hope I’m not mistaken. But I didn’t see her at the wedding. I saw her (at least I hope it was her) about 22 minutes into the episode immediately following Tyrion saying goodbye to Shae and slapping some cup which fell to the floor. In the scene to which I refer, someone was burned at the stake. Do you remember that scene? I couldn’t follow anything that happened there. I don’t know the name of the man burned at the stake or what his role was in the story. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/291 "2014-04-15T21:13:45Z")
I’d imagine this has been mentioned but you’ll forgive me for not wading through the thread: > [@](#): > > In 2012, Gleeson indicated an intention to retire from acting to pursue an academic career once his work on Game of Thrones was finished.[9] After the airing of “The Lion and the Rose,” the second episode of the fourth season of Game of Thrones in April 2014, Gleeson confirmed his retirement from acting.[10] > **[Jack Gleeson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Gleeson)** > > Jack Gleeson (born 20 May 1992) is an Irish actor who is best known for his role as Joffrey Baratheon on the HBO television series Game of Thrones (2011–2014). Following this role, Gleeson took a hiatus from acting, but has since taken part in independent theatre and the 2020 BBC miniseries Out of Her Mind. He appeared in the Irish thriller film In the Land of Saints and Sinners. > Gleeson was born in Cork, Ireland, and raised in Ranelagh, Dublin, where he attended Gonzaga College. He has two o... ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/292 "2014-04-15T21:14:39Z")
It is important to remember, Margaery and Oleanna know just what kind of a monster Joffery is and that no one, especially not Margaery, would be safe with him for long. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/293 "2014-04-15T21:15:53Z")
I thank you very much Max. I remembered most of those facts once I saw them in writing. However, I doubt that I would have remembered them if it wasn’t for you nice recap. Very succinct and to the point without any rambling. But, now can you tell me what she was doing at that scene where someone was burned at the stake? Where did that happen? Was it back in the Eyrie? > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So, remember Catelyn Stark, Ed’s wife, Robb’s mother, recently got her throat slit at the Red Wedding? > > She was born Catelyn Tully. She had a sister, Lysa Tully. While they were young, an ambitious young schemer named Baelish (who would grow up to be Littlefinger) had a crush on Cat, and thus presumably knew both sisters. > > Lysa married John Arryn, who was a good friend of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon, and became Lysa Arryn. John Arryn was hand of the king for Robert Baratheon was murdered right before season 1, and the mystery of that murder is what more or less kicked the events of the show into action. Lysa became paranoid that the Lannisters had done it and fled to The Eyrie, which is a mountaintop fortress that is a traditional stronghold of the Arryns, along with her son Robin, who she breastfeeds even though he seems much too old for that. > > Back in season 1, when Catelyn arrested Tyrion (for trying to kill Bran), she took him to The Eyrie because it was nearby, heavily fortified, and her sister was there. Her sister turned out to be even loopier than she remembered, Tyrion had a trial by combat, became friends with Bronn (who did the combatting), and then all the main characters left. > > We haven’t seen Lysa since then, but when Littlefinger sailed off last season, we were told he was on his way to the Eyrie to marry Lysa and thus assume some noble title or other (I’ve forgotten precisely which one). ---
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/294 "2014-04-15T21:15:53Z")
One thing in this episode that really bugged me: the giant lion’s head that the “history reenacters” emerged from. Looked like something out of Disneyland. This from a show that usually tries hard for a gritty and plausibly Medieval look. Bad call, Props Department. > [@DigitalC](#): > > I think this thread is going to win the price for most creative spellings of “Cersei” and “Loras” out of all our GoT threads, and we are only on page 2! Strictly speaking, for non-book readers, spelling of names is up for grabs. Character names aren’t displayed in the credits, and this is a society that’s not big on literature or even signage. (They love their heraldry though.) Last week was the first time I can recall seeing anyone’s name actually written out (“Ser Jaime Lannister”, in the Big Book of Brothers), and for anyone who’s only watched the show, I could see people going whaddya know, they spell “sir” with an “e”. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/295 "2014-04-15T21:16:08Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Well, I sure do hope I’m not mistaken. But I didn’t see her at the wedding. I saw her (at least I hope it was her) about 22 minutes into the episode immediately following Tyrion saying goodbye to Shae and slapping some cup which fell to the floor. > > In the scene to which I refer, someone was burned at the stake. Do you remember that scene? I couldn’t follow anything that happened there. I don’t know the name of the man burned at the stake or what his role was in the story. Maybe you’re confusing Lysa with Stannis’s wife [Selyse](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Selyse_Florent)? The people being burned at the stake were people who had refused to sufficiently recognize The Lord of Light, the one god of the religion that Stannis has now adopted (due to the work of sexy red priestess Melisandre). ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/296 "2014-04-15T21:18:40Z")
For all those people who may not know, there is a site that contains some very brief biographical info on all the characters in the story together with the correct spelling of their names. However, I’m not sure whether I should post a link to this site because the sticky for this thread says there is not to be any “outside info” used in this thread. Can anyone please advise me whether it is OK to post a link to that site? > [@Vashbul](#): > > One thing in this episode that really bugged me: the giant lion’s head that the “history reenacters” emerged from. Looked like something out of Disneyland. This from a show that usually tries hard for a gritty and plausibly Medieval look. Bad call, Props Department. > Strictly speaking, for non-book readers, spelling of names is up for grabs. Character names aren’t displayed in the credits, and this is a society that’s not big on literature or even signage. (They love their heraldry though.) > > Last week was the first time I can recall seeing anyone’s name actually written out (“Ser Jaime Lannister”, in the Big Book of Brothers), and for anyone who’s only watched the show, I could see people going whaddya know, they spell “sir” with an “e”. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/297 "2014-04-15T21:19:56Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Maybe you’re confusing Lysa with Stannis’s wife [Selyse](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Selyse_Florent)? > > The people being burned at the stake were people who had refused to sufficiently recognize The Lord of Light, the one god of the religion that Stannis has now adopted (due to the work of sexy red priestess Melisandre). I believe you are correct. Does Lysa look anything like Selyse? I had never previously heard of Selyse and can’t ever recall her appearing in any prior episode. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/298 "2014-04-15T21:27:37Z")
They do look slightly similar, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/299 "2014-04-15T21:32:27Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Especially if he plans to use a gigantic wooden torture-dildo or perhaps some masturbatory human dart practice. You know, like usual. Oh, come now. Give him a little credit : Joffrey was a hopeless romantic. He would have wanted his wedding night to be special, not humdrum skull-buggery. It was his wife’s first (to the best of his knowledge) after all. He would have wanted to treat her right. Make it memorable. What I mean is, have you ever seen [Salò](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sal%C3%B2,_or_the_120_Days_of_Sodom) by any chance ? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/300 "2014-04-15T21:32:33Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > They do look slightly similar, yes. OK. Thank you. I guess I got the two of them mixed up. I couldn’t figure out just what Catelyn’s sister would have been doing in this episode. It was very puzzling. However, if anyone knows, I’d still like to know just what that scene was about where that man was burned at the stake. I know that I recognized him from some prior episode. If anyone can explain, I sure would like to know how he fit into this episode and how the scene of his being burned … what did that have to do with this episode? Did it fit in at all with Joff’s wedding or assassination? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=16)