# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/421 "2014-04-18T03:19:48Z")
Okay, so I am convinced it was Olenna. I have reconciled with the things that bothered me about it, the crazy roundabout way of getting the poison into Joffrey and her motive. The whole “hide the poison is Sansa’s necklace” thing that bothered me the most was it seems the whole point of that would be to implicate Sansa. Maybe she felt that since she was also going to make sure Sansa escaped that it was okay but if things went wrong and Sansa didn’t get away she was basically setting her up to die. It just seems pretty despicable of her. Granted, I think she only cares about her own family but this was a girl that had trusted both her and Marg. And that leads to the motive. Yes, it seems like a dumb thing to kill Joff before the wedding was consummated but I would guess her main reason was to protect her grandaughter since Joff was so unpredictable. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/422 "2014-04-18T04:11:23Z")
Martin made Joffrey’s poisoning unnecessarily complicated. It’s like he knew where he wanted some characters to end up and went backwards from there to make it happen. If we’re assuming the poison was in Sansa’s necklace, what would Lady Olenna have done if Sansa hadn’t worn it? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/423 "2014-04-18T04:24:36Z")
Take it from her own or Margery’s necklace, perhaps. She went through a lot of trouble to find just the right necklace for Margery. (Including throwing one rejected necklace away, then sending servant girls out to scour the shops for better offerings.) That scene helped reinforce how wealthy the Tyrell’s are, but it may also have been laying groundwork for the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/424 "2014-04-18T04:26:31Z")
The fool guilt tripped her until she promised to wear it in public. The wedding was the next big public event. I assume Olenna would have planned things differently had the fool reported that Sansa proved unusually headstrong about it - but then Olenna had also personally gauged Sansa and found her to be a bit of a pushover, which presumably prompted the fool ploy in the first place. And for all we know, Olenna had a backup vial of poison in her pocket if plan A was a bust. So yes, if that’s really how it turns out it’s a bit of a Batman gambit I suppose… but it’s not a terrorist plot from 24 either, where every single piece of the puzzle _has_ to go perfect in every way (and in outrageous ways, too) for the plan to possibly work at all. Sansa as the patsy makes the plan go down smoother, but it’s not a \*necessary \*bit of it I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/425 "2014-04-18T04:31:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I believe the show goes out of its way to establish that Tyrion is particularly smart. He says so several times… And he’s so humble, too! ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/426 "2014-04-18T04:39:02Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > Okay, so I am convinced it was Olenna. I have reconciled with the things that bothered me about it, the crazy roundabout way of getting the poison into Joffrey and her motive. But in the previews for next week Tyrion says “This has been done by someone who wanted to frame me” Why would Olenna want to frame Tyrion? (assuming he’s right, of course) ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/427 "2014-04-18T05:05:08Z")
That’s the beauty of this universe: you get people’s perspectives and they are often wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/428 "2014-04-18T05:19:08Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Why would Olenna want to frame Tyrion? (assuming he’s right, of course) To deflect attention from herself. She’d want a quick, clean trial and a prompt execution to forestall any further inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/429 "2014-04-18T05:43:25Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > But in the previews for next week Tyrion says “This has been done by someone who wanted to frame me” > > Why would Olenna want to frame Tyrion? (assuming he’s right, of course) A preview, you say? The way I watch it I do not get any previews. But since you brought it up, if you were Tyrion and you had handed the king his wine and he ended up poisoned and you know you didn’t do it wouldn’t you naturally assume that someone wanted to make you look guilty? I don’t think he has any special insight. As for why would Olenna frame Tyrion? I think that was just a happy coincidence for her. She most likely was setting up the most innocent little milquetoast girl in all of Westeros, I doubt she cared one whit about anyone else who could have been implicated as long as it wasn’t her family. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/430 "2014-04-18T06:05:49Z")
That they happened to be married to each other is just a happy bonus. _Someone_ in that couple was getting implicated come hell or high water. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/431 "2014-04-18T07:49:24Z")
You need to see[that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWSjckKmF5M). I just loved it 😃 (no spoilers in the video, don’t worry) ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/432 "2014-04-18T12:27:30Z")
I have no problem accepting it was Olenna wot dun it, but I don’t understand the need to hide poison/necklace thing. Were people searched going into the wedding: someone searched that uppity old bird - no Sounds straight off the Internet… The other thing that struck me is the new guy - with the varied sexual tastes - must be intened to fill the debauchery quotiant now Joffers is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/433 "2014-04-18T12:35:41Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I have no problem accepting it was Olenna wot dun it, but I don’t understand the need to hide poison/necklace thing. To implicate Sansa as a means of deflecting blame away from Olenna. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/434 "2014-04-18T12:56:53Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > But in the previews for next week Tyrion says “This has been done by someone who wanted to frame me” > > Why would Olenna want to frame Tyrion? (assuming he’s right, of course) I can see the appeal to her of sowing discord among the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/435 "2014-04-18T13:28:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > To implicate Sansa as a means of deflecting blame away from Olenna. Yep, I think this was it exactly. Sansa was to be the patsy in this. All Sansa would be able to say is that Dantos the Fool gave her the necklace. If the conspirators have quickly eliminated Dantos (speculation obviously but would seem the obvious next step) then the trail ends right there. Sansa did it to revenge her father and brother against the Lannisters who killed them. Tyrion was not the intended patsy and now an innocent bystander of sorts who may take the fall instead. Naturally it still works out for the Tyrells - Olenna marries Margaery to Tommen instead and gets her bloodline/family/house on the throne and no one is the wiser. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/436 "2014-04-18T13:48:48Z")
Gets her bloodline/family/house on the throne with an infinitely more pliable and less dangerous king. That last bit is really important to the “Tyrells did it” option. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/437 "2014-04-18T14:33:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > To implicate Sansa as a means of deflecting blame away from Olenna. Yep, and it worked because Sansa fled. Tyrion catching the blame – maybe that’s why Lady Olenna looked so uneasy when Joff insisted that Tyrion pour the wine. But still, all it would take for the plot to unravel would be for someone to remember that the only time Sansa was near Joff’s cup was when he purposely dropped it, and that couldn’t have been pre-arranged. But Cersei wants Tyrion dead. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/438 "2014-04-18T14:39:21Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Tyrion catching the blame – maybe that’s why Lady Olenna looked so uneasy when Joff insisted that Tyrion pour the wine. Yeah, but there’s really two ways to interpret that look : either “Oh no, my dastardly plot is going to negatively impact that nice Mr. Tyrion :(”, or “Mother_fucker_, they’re going to ruin my dastardly patsy plot ! :mad:” ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/439 "2014-04-18T14:44:29Z")
oh okay, so the tubby court jester guy works for Olenna, even though Sansa saved him that time. It’s all a bit Murder She Wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/440 "2014-04-18T14:44:48Z")
Was the necklace that Olenna pitched over the side of the balcony the same one that the fool gave Sansa? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=23)