# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/441 "2014-04-18T17:30:05Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > The other thing that struck me is the new guy - with the varied sexual tastes - must be intened to fill the debauchery quotiant now Joffers is gone. I don’t think bisexuality should be considered debauched. And it _definitely_ shouldn’t be put in the same category as shooting whores with crossbows. **Death of Rats** , they appear to be different necklaces. Compare these two screenshots: [Thrown Necklace](http://imgur.com/Z3y6Frr,bCbHqYZ#0) [Received Necklace](http://imgur.com/Z3y6Frr,bCbHqYZ#1) ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/442 "2014-04-18T17:36:12Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I don’t think bisexuality should be considered debauched. And it _definitely_ shouldn’t be put in the same category as shooting whores with crossbows. Yeah but… there was also whores and some dude ended up stabbed. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/443 "2014-04-18T17:45:45Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yeah but… there was also whores and some dude ended up stabbed. You’ve just described every other scene in this series… ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/444 "2014-04-18T17:46:18Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yeah but… there was also whores and some dude ended up stabbed. Joffrey’s thing was sadism. Oberyn’s thing is shagging everything he likes, and occasionally killing or hurting people, but that’s a side-interest. Oberyn stabbed some guy because he was singing the song of an opposing house. He was then persuaded to let the guy go. Joffrey would have had everyone in the whorehouse, plus their babies, slowly killed. They’re not the same kind of person in the slightest. Joffrey’s kind of “debauchery” will be filled in by Ramsay Snow. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/445 "2014-04-18T18:23:53Z")
I assumed we were gently introduced to Oberyn, wouldn’t be good storytelling to give it all up in the first few scenes. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/446 "2014-04-18T19:10:05Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Tyrion catching the blame – maybe that’s why Lady Olenna looked so uneasy when Joff insisted that Tyrion pour the wine. I thought everyone was looking uneasy. The king was very publicly shitting all over his brother/master of coins. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/447 "2014-04-18T19:46:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I thought everyone was looking uneasy. The king was very publicly shitting all over his brother/master of coins. Uncle/cousin, not brother, but yes, it would be reasonable for everyone to look uneasy without any ulterior motive. Loris left quickly. That could just be because his ex-lover was being lampooned, and it would be understandable. However, if he knew that Sansa was being set up that would add an extra reason for him leaving - Sansa was very happy to marry him and he her, and it would probably have worked out quite well for both of them. From that one conversation he had with Sansa he would have known that she really is an ingenue who doesn’t deserve to be blamed for this. Knowing that his Grandmother (and possibly his sister, though I suspect she’s in the dark - we don’t get previews at the end of the show in the UK) has set up Sansa could have given him extra impetus to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/448 "2014-04-18T20:11:20Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Loris left quickly. That could just be because his ex-lover was being lampooned, and it would be understandable. It was not just his ex-lover. Mini Renly’s ‘horse’ is a Loras with prominent naked buttocks. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/449 "2014-04-18T21:43:55Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Uncle/cousin, not brother, but yes, it would be reasonable for everyone to look uneasy without any ulterior motive. Nah, just uncle. Or uncle squared. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/450 "2014-04-18T22:46:28Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > … > > Loris left quickly. … Are you sure? I thought Loris was rather slow. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/451 "2014-04-18T22:47:44Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > Are you sure? I thought Loris was rather slow. > 😛 He is, however, quite slender… ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/452 "2014-04-18T23:04:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It was not just his ex-lover. Mini Renly’s ‘horse’ is a Loras with prominent naked buttocks. Thanks much, I totally missed this. I mean, I saw the naked buttocks horse, but I didn’t connect that to any particular meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/453 "2014-04-19T00:51:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Tywin doesn’t think he’s an idiot, he just hates him. He let him rule in his stead as hand of the king and made him master of coin. Tywin knows Tyrion is the smartest of his children, and the most capable of playing the game - but he can never get over the things that make him hate him. This seems about right to me. Tywin sees Tyrion as a stain on the Lannister name, and as a defective monster who killed his wife in childbirth. To Tywin, these are unforgivable sins. Tyrion never had a chance to be on Tywin’s ‘good side’ and was rejected from birth. That in turn made him cynical and turned him to drinking and whoring, which simply confirmed to Tywin that Tyrion was a degenerate. However, Tywin came to recognize that Tyrion was also very smart and very capable, and therefore had no qualms about using him wherever he needed to. He made him Hand because he needed someone to do it and knew Tyrion was capable of it. He made him master of coin because he knew Tyrion was capable of it. But none of that is going to make Tywin love him or even respect him. He hates Tyrion because every time he looks at him he sees a defect in the Lannister line, and he sees his dead wife. Tywin Lannister is perfectly capable of despising Tyrion while still using him wherever it makes sense to do so. He’s also capable of tossing Tyrion aside or even killing him with no qualms whatsoever. He’d probably enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/454 "2014-04-19T01:39:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This seems about right to me. Tywin sees Tyrion as a stain on the Lannister name, and as a defective monster who killed his wife in childbirth. To Tywin, these are unforgivable sins. “All dwarfs are bastards in their fathers’ eyes.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=22)