# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/101 "2014-04-14T13:14:00Z")
I think this thread is going to win the price for most creative spellings of “Cersei” and “Loras” out of all our GoT threads, and we are only on page 2! ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/102 "2014-04-14T13:36:34Z")
[Hijack] Did anyone catch the shout-out to Walking Dead? When the cunt is asking for names for his sword, someone yells “Terminus”. Not that they didn’t intentionally start their season the week after WD ended, in the same time slot.[/Hijack] ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/103 "2014-04-14T13:39:39Z")
It’s almost certainly not a walking dead reference of any sort. “Terminus” can mean the end, or edge, and either sort of make sense for a sword. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/104 "2014-04-14T13:50:06Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > [Hijack] Did anyone catch the shout-out to Walking Dead? When the cunt is asking for names for his sword, someone yells “Terminus”. Not that they didn’t intentionally start their season the week after WD ended, in the same time slot.[/Hijack] I have _no_ idea what “terminus” has to do with The Walking Dead, but I hope that you realize, I hope, that the word existed before that show, and will exist when that show is long forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/105 "2014-04-14T13:56:04Z")
Oh come on. For those that don’t watch Walking Dead, the entire season was about the search for Terminus, which was found 3 weeks ago in the next to last episode. Throwing it out as a random name for a sword on a show in the exact same time slot is not a coincidence. Occam’s razor tells me it is a shout-out. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/106 "2014-04-14T13:58:05Z")
GoT was probably through principle photography before Walking Dead started airing the second half of the season, and a show that takes itself seriously like GoT has basically never given a cutesy sort of shout out like this, and why would it start towards Walking Dead of all things? You’re digging yourself into a very silly hole. ---
**Author:** ![Orr\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@Orr\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orr_G)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/107 "2014-04-14T14:13:20Z")
The first sword suggestion I heard was “Stormbringer”, which is Elric’s sword (Moorcock). It made me wonder if the other suggestions were references, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/108 "2014-04-14T14:17:06Z")
Was I the only one to giggle when the QoT told her son (her king) to get lost when she was chatting with Tywin? ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/109 "2014-04-14T14:23:31Z")
> [@Orr\_G](#): > > The first sword suggestion I heard was “Stormbringer”, which is Elric’s sword (Moorcock). It made me wonder if the other suggestions were references, as well. I heard that as “Stormbreaker”, which would be a reference to his victory over Stannis. One of the other suggestions was Wolfsbane, which would be a reference to the deaths of Robb and Ned Stark and the fall of their house at Lannister hands. Widow’s Wail has a similar meaning, though I don’t think it references anything specific. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/110 "2014-04-14T14:24:49Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I think this thread is going to win the price for most creative spellings of “Cersei” and “Loras” out of all our GoT threads, and we are only on page 2! I was going to post this. I mean… “Sergei”, really? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/111 "2014-04-14T14:28:08Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > [Hijack] Did anyone catch the shout-out to Walking Dead? When the cunt is asking for names for his sword, someone yells “Terminus”. Not that they didn’t intentionally start their season the week after WD ended, in the same time slot.[/Hijack] “Terminus” rather reminds me of the executioner’s sword in “the book of the new sun” (called Terminus est). If anything I would assume it’s rather a reference to this book by GRR Martin. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/112 "2014-04-14T14:43:59Z")
> [@Orr\_G](#): > > The first sword suggestion I heard was “Stormbringer”, which is Elric’s sword (Moorcock). It made me wonder if the other suggestions were references, as well. It might also be because Joffrey was technically a Baratheon and they rule the storm lands. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/113 "2014-04-14T14:56:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > GoT was probably through principle photography before Walking Dead started airing the second half of the season, and a show that takes itself seriously like GoT has basically never given a cutesy sort of shout out like this, and why would it start towards Walking Dead of all things? > > You’re digging yourself into a very silly hole. First, it was widely reported that GoT’s season premeire was timed to be after Walking Dead had its season finale, and once again, being in the same time slot implies a wide crossover audience. Secondly, the voices calling out the suggestions came from off-screen, and may have been edited in post-production. Thirdly, the other sword names I heard (Stormbreaker and Wolf’s Bane) were definitely references to in-universe events. To what does “Terminus” refer, in-universe? [QUOTE=clairobscur] “Terminus” rather reminds me of the executioner’s sword in “the book of the new sun” (called Terminus est). If anything I would assume it’s rather a reference to this book by GRR Martin. [/QUOTE] I was not aware of that reference (being that this thread is for non GRRM book readers), and this theory does hold water. However, I still stand by my assertation that it was a shout out, because we have never heard the word before in this show, and its prominence in this season of WD. **clairobscur** may be right, as I have heard that the contents of the book of knights that Joffrey was using to poke fun at his uncle were references to other works by GRRM. In other news, my money is on Tywin/Oleanna plotted Joffrey’s death because he was too hard to control, and Margery can just marry Tommen when he comes of age. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/114 "2014-04-14T14:58:23Z")
Alright then, you go ahead and stick to your Walking Dead shout out theory. Where does “hearteater” or “widows’ wail” come from? They’re shit that have to deal with killing and death that people think sound badass. Terminus is latin for “the end” or “the edge” and has that Latiny badass sound to it. No outside explanation is needed. It’s certainly more plausible than the idea that we’ve had 32 hours of this TV show, and they decided to cheapen the integrity of their show for the first time by dropping a pop culture reference - and the source material that required such a thing? Why, of course, the great Walking Dead, the epitome of western literature and motion picture entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/115 "2014-04-14T15:08:14Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Alright then, you go ahead and stick to your Walking Dead shout out theory. > > Where does “hearteater” or “widows’ wail” come from? They’re shit that have to deal with killing and death that people think sound badass. Terminus is latin for “the end” or “the edge” and has that Latiny badass sound to it. No outside explanation is needed. It’s certainly more plausible than the idea that we’ve had 32 hours of this TV show, and they decided to cheapen the integrity of their show for the first time by dropping a pop culture reference - and the source material that required such a thing? Why, of course, the great Walking Dead, the epitome of western literature and motion picture entertainment. On the other hand a latin word in GoT makes zero sense. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/116 "2014-04-14T15:12:52Z")
The best part of Joffrey’s dying, doing so in that toad Cersei’s arms. I am looking forward to tis weeks Facebook posting: Joffrey has changed his status to Dead Everyone likes this ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/117 "2014-04-14T15:15:08Z")
Was this one of the few non boobie episodes, in all the suspense leading up to the end, I’m wondering if I actually missed something ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/118 "2014-04-14T15:17:52Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > On the other hand a latin word in GoT makes zero sense. A word in English makes no sense either, then, right? They should make up some common westerosi langage and give us the whole show in subtitles. An English speaker would be familiar with the latin word terminus in the same way they’d be familiar with the French word, oh, say, liege. You’re communicating with an audience that speaks English, who are familiar with certain borrowed foreign words that have a certain connotation due to the language they’re borrowed from. “Terminus” works because we’re meant to assume there’s some sort of equivelant in westerosi common - basically, some sort of borrowed or unusual word that gives the sort of gravitas that English speakers tend to give Latin. Or not. You’re communicating to an audience that speaks a different language than the one ostensibly spoken by the characters of your show, but practically, they’re speaking English and they’d have the same sort of etymologies and word use that we would, unless it’s specifically noted otherwise as part of the story. This is all very silly. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/119 "2014-04-14T15:27:26Z")
I don’t think it’s impossible that the showrunners would mess with the audio a teeny bit in post-production to add something in that still fits perfectly in-universe but is also a shout-out to another show. I don’t think it’s LIKELY, but I don’t think it’s impossible. After all, there’s some discussion that the “a man’s got to have a code” line from last week’s episode was a shout-out to The Wire. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/120 "2014-04-14T15:28:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Where does “hearteater” or “widows’ wail” come from? They’re shit that have to deal with killing and death that people think sound badass. Terminus is latin for “the end” or “the edge” and has that Latiny badass sound to it. Taking no stand on whether “Terminus” is referencing anything in particular (probably not [this guy](http://marvel.wikia.com/Terminus_(Destroyer)_(Earth-616))), I just have to say I thought “hearteater” was a perfect example of a name for a sword that is trying way too hard to sound badass. Exactly the sort of thing a c\*\*\* like Joffrey would name his sword. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=7)